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-   -   Batting Out Of Order or NOT (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/74413-batting-out-order-not.html)

Mass Ump Mon Jul 11, 2011 04:23pm

Batting Out Of Order or NOT
 
In a 14U JO ASA game after the batter completed her turn at bat and struck out for the third out of the inning the defensive coach came out of the dugout before the infielders were in foul territory and stated that the offensive team batted out of order. It was reported to the homeplate umpire by the defensive coach that number 44 was batting and not number 41 which was written on the lineup card. A runner crossed the plate two pitches prior to the strikeout so the run was taken away because of the batting out of order which I totally agree with. The only problem that I seen with the enforcement of the rule was that on the lineup card it had the girls names on it along with numbers and the girl in question at bat was the girl whose name was on the lineup card in that spot. Her number was written as 44 on the lineup card and not 41. I don't know if this would matter even if you had the wrong number because the ASA rulebook states Rule 7 Section 2 A. the batting order shall show the names, first and last, in the order in which the players are scheduled to bat. I think you could almost say the number was 41 its just a slash mark with the pencil. This was not my game but in my opinion I would not have called batting out of order since the girl in questions name was on the lineup card and she was batting.

NCASAUmp Mon Jul 11, 2011 04:27pm

If you determine that it was a case of mistaken numbers and that 41 should have been written as 44 (or however it worked out), make the correction and continue play with no penalty (ASA 3-6-D).

PSUchem Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:11pm

And even if it HAD been batting out of order, all advancement of runners on pitches that did not include the batter becoming a batter runner (hit, walk, etc.) would stand. The removal of the run was incorrect.

DeputyUICHousto Mon Jul 11, 2011 11:51pm

One key phrase here!
 
"before the next pitch, legal or illegal"

Mass Ump Tue Jul 12, 2011 02:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by PSUchem (Post 771903)
And even if it HAD been batting out of order, all advancement of runners on pitches that did not include the batter becoming a batter runner (hit, walk, etc.) would stand. The removal of the run was incorrect.

I thought according to Rule 7 Sec 2 D 2 b. EFFECT b. Any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs made stand. I know that the umpire made a mistake because of the ruling that NCASAUmp gave ASA 3-6-D.
But I thought if it was the incorrect batter that you would take away the run because it was the last out of the inning and even though the batter struck out the batting out of order was discovered before the infielders left fair territory. I thought it didn't matter which pitch it was to the batter, the run scored on a pass ball two pitches prior to the strikeout. It doesn't state in the rule book that the batter has to become a batter runner it states After the incorrect batter has completed a turn at bat. Any replies will help with my thought process.

Mass Ump Tue Jul 12, 2011 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ncasaump (Post 771849)
if you determine that it was a case of mistaken numbers and that 41 should have been written as 44 (or however it worked out), make the correction and continue play with no penalty (asa 3-6-d).

thank you

Mass Ump Tue Jul 12, 2011 02:51pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto (Post 771908)
"before the next pitch, legal or illegal"

It was the end of the Inning

Az.Ump Tue Jul 12, 2011 07:50pm

1. While the incorrect batter is at bat:
EFFECT: The correct batter must take the batter’s position and assume
any balls and strikes. Any runs scored or bases run while the incorrect
batter was at bat shall be legal. There is no penalty whether discovered
by the offense or defense while the incorrect batter is at bat.

D.1. applies during the at bat. D.2. applies after completion of the at bat (when the batter becomes a runner or is retired). There is no retroactivity.

Paul

DeputyUICHousto Wed Jul 13, 2011 12:26am

I don't see this as batting out of order.
 
Its simply a clerical mistake.

CecilOne Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:12am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto (Post 772174)
Its simply a clerical mistake.

Names take precedence over numbers.

MNBlue Wed Jul 20, 2011 11:59am

How is anyone suppose to know the name is correct?

Trust a coach?
Trust a player?

NCASAUmp Wed Jul 20, 2011 12:01pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 773771)
How is anyone suppose to know the name is correct?

Trust a coach?
Trust a player?

I'm not going to ask a 12-year old for her driver's license to prove it. :p :D

MNBlue Wed Jul 20, 2011 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 773773)
I'm not going to ask a 12-year old for her driver's license to prove it. :p :D

I understand.

I was specifically speaking to those people who WILL lie to us? Coaches, adult males, women - oops, I guess my wife doesn't play.

Sans a roster, do we just take people's word for it?

NCASAUmp Wed Jul 20, 2011 01:31pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 773792)
I understand.

I was specifically speaking to those people who WILL lie to us? Coaches, adult males, women - oops, I guess my wife doesn't play.

Sans a roster, do we just take people's word for it?

We don't have too many other options. If the adult coach is deceptive in their presentation of who a player is, then we have greater issues at stake. I can ask the child what his/her name is or check the numbers of the other players, but that's as far as I'm going to take it without further reason to believe that the story just isn't adding up.

Yes, people lie, but it's not my responsibility to conduct a witch hunt.

CecilOne Wed Jul 20, 2011 01:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by MNBlue (Post 773771)
How is anyone suppose to know the name is correct?

Trust a coach?
Trust a player?

In the OP, if one of the numbers appears on the lineup and the other does not, that makes the number seem wrong. If the name seems to match, either by the previous batter being correct or the ump recognizing the player's position, etc. then no issue.

But yes, sometimes faith is required (also by the other coach).


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