When your partner makes a terrible judgment call, you live with it unless he asks you for help. For example, I was once BU in a SP game, and the PU called a foul ball on a line drive that I could see, even from the 1B line, had landed a yard inside the LF line. After the offense begged him to appeal to me, he did, and I called it fair. Strange to do it that way, but we did get the call right, and nobody squawked very much. However, if he had said he was sure of the call—if he hadn't asked for help—then I would have said nothing even though I was absolutely sure he had blown it.

But let's say your partner misinterprets a rule, the offended team appeals to him to check with you, and he won't. Do you approach him and try to set things straight?

Suppose you were faced with the following situations that my partners have put me in over the years:

1. Partner allows runners to tag on an infield fly from the moment he called IF, not the moment of contact with the glove.

2. Partner calls a crash interference out on obviously inadvertent, mild contact <i>after</i> the ball has gone 50 feet from the play.

3. Partner calls interference on <i>himself</i> and bangs a runner out at 1B. "I made F4 throw around me," he says.

4. Partner calls a foul ball on a foul tip (bat to catcher's hand to chest protector to hand). Says to coach who objected, "It must go directly to the hand. Hits the hand and then the protector, it can't be a foul tip."

5. Partner awards "one and one" on an overthrow into DBT. "He was returning to 1B, so he gets 1B and 2B."

OK, these could go on and on, but at what point do we step in? Does it matter if the coaches simply accept whatever incorrect interpretation he makes? What if your partner won't appeal to you and the coach the approaches you directly and says, "You <i>know</i> that's wrong!"

Who do you protect?
 

Your partner or the game integrity. It seems to me that your priority should be to make the right call, especially if it is a correctable error (not a judgement call).

A couple years ago I had R1 at 2B, 2 outs. After pitched ball was returned to F1, R1 is slowly making way back to 2B. F1 raises her arm, R1 immediately stops and dances. BU, who is intently focused on R1 calls her out. R1 and defensive players leave field. Stunned, I am standing at home plate wondering what to do. Stop the exit of players? Quickly go talk to BU? Actually, I was hoping that the offensive coach would bail me out and raise the issue. But she didn't, and I let it go.

Later I broached the subject between innings; BU didn't even know that F1 faked a throw. He did even know that he should have been watching F1.

So some good came out of it; he learned something new. But if it happened again today, I think that I would quickly get to the BU, explain what I saw and ask if he wanted to change his call. If he said "no," only then would I let it go.
WMB

interesting subject
 

I am going to put some of my thoughts down and will let the experts come in to gave us the correct answers.

Things that would go into my decision if I was to get into a incorrect call by my partner in a game

1. Who my partner was and his experience. A veteren ump and the coaches are buying his ruling. I am keeping quiet and discussing with them the call later after the game. Rookie ump I would be more likely to try to pull them aside and discussed the play before further play

2. What type of game we are in? League play between last place teams a lot more chance I am going to keep quiet then a championship game, tournament game etc and wait for a later time to discuss

3. If I am the plate ump and any discussion of protest because of a ruling than my thoughts are diffently going to be entered into the discussion.

4. If a coach comes to me after my partner has made his decision not to ask for help and say "You know thats Wrong". Whether it was wrong or right I will not say anything to the coach he is talking to the wrong ump. Depending on the situation again I might try to pull the partner away to discuss the play if I am sure he is wrong on a rule call

5. Never get into judgement discussion unless appeal to by the partner. No matter what...


JMOs

Don

I'm interested in know what you did with the runners after your partner calls a ball foul and then you come in on appeal and say that it is fair? I don't know, even though he was wrong I think you might just have to stick with the original call.

In the situations above, if you know for sure the ruling is incorrect, I would call time, call my partner over and ask him what his ruling was, maybe he saw something I didn't. If I still feel he is incorrect then I would tell him what I feel the ruling should be and why? If he is still hard headed and doesn't want to chnage it, the I would probably just let it stand and call our UIC and let him handle it after that.

I had a situation with one umpire. I was on the bases, he was on the plate. Batter hits a foul ball that goes up and back, hits the top of the backstop and the catcher catches it on the way down. The PU calls the batter out. I waited a second cause I couldn't believe what I heard, and he said it again, batter is out. Well of course the batter is going nuts and so I go over, ask him what he ruled. He said out on the catch. I asked if he saw the ball hit the backstop, I was hoping that he didn't, but he said that he saw it. I then told him that if the ball hit the backstop that it was dead and cannot be caught for an out. He asked if that was right, I said yes and he changed the call. Now if he would have insisted that the batter was out. I would have let it go after I tried to convince him, and them called our UIC after and had him taken off the list.

If they won't change it on the field I think you just need to let it go and then call the guys above and let them handle him. This would only apply to rules interpretations, not judgement calls.

Good subject!

Judgement call - nothing unless partner asks (in reference to a pulled foot, bad angle, etc.) Otherwise, bad judgement is just bad judgement.

Rule interpretation - make sure "We" get it right before proceding

I look at it this way, we are a team and for us winning is getting the job done right. That said if a partner makes a protestable call we'll be having a quiet chat at the end of which he'll be announcing the final ruling. Never have I heard a team complain because of excessive umpire conferances but I have heard them complain about not enough. I'm not going out to show up my partner, heck I might go out even if I agree to begin with just to make the teams see that we really do care about getting it right. If it's a judgement call I will almost always wait for my partner to come to me for help.
I say almost because in the 3000+ games that I've called I have only once gone out on a judgement call before being asked. I was PU for a mens A/AA league game. On a double play ball the throw to 1st was a little off line and the 1st baseman juggled the ball away from my partner where he couldn't possibly see the juggle and banged out the BR. Now I've come up the line to watch for pulled foot and saw the obvious juggle along with the BR and everyone in his, the 1st base, dugout. My partner was very experienced but has a short fuse and the BR also had a rep for a short fuse. I tried to let everyone know that I had seen the juggle but I was too late to save the BR, he was gone before I got there but our discussion with the coach was a short one. "Coach, you know he's gotta go when he says what he did, he's gone but not out. Put in a sub and maybe next time he'll wait until the dust settles before he tosses himself out again." Jim

Narrowing the options
 

It appears the consensus is moving towards the "get it right" position. In FED ball we have less options. We can't call in the UIC (don't have one unless it is the end of the season State Tournament); and in some states (ie. Michigan) we do not allow protests. You have to get it right - at game time.

Normally, a player or coach is calling attention to the issue. So we have time out, and time for umpire conferences. This may be the place for the Chief Umpire to invoke his responsibility to make the final call - if the two umpires can not agree.

My question to all: What if no one complains? Maybe the coach isn't quite sure of the correct rule and decides to keep quiet. But you know that an error has been made - and one the teams is being unfairly penalized because of the error. Do you speak up?
WMB

Ok, I'll add my $.05.

It is time for the coaches to pay attention to what is going on during the game.

At no time would I over rule a partner without first being asked. The coach has many tools available to him/her if he/she thinks an umpire has not made the right call, The first is to approach it in a civil way, If the coaches would get this through their head, they would have a better chance to get a discussion between me and my partner.If you are sure you made the right call, why bother going to your partner?? If I go to my partner with a call I am not going to change, now the coach thinks you both can't see. I never have a problem going to my partner if I can question my call.

If the coach doesn't question a call, it doesn't even get a discussion even if I know my partner blew it big time. I will discuss it with him after the game, but not during it.

Bottom line: If asked and I think I may not have it right, I will go to my partner. If not asked, we play on.

Bob

Getting it right
 

Glad this is getting discussion. I brought the same thing up a few weeks back, (What to do about wrong calls? 1/7/03) and the responses were fewer. Whiskers misread when I said I watched it from behind home plate that I was only a spectator (that is the view of the plate ump of base calls). But his response did point out ASA bans unsolicited intervention. I don't work ASA, but I am concerned about this concept, believing instead in getting it right if possible.

Several posts suggest an impact analysis (last place vs a playoff game), and I agree to a point. Also, as noted, IF you know the other umps / coaches / players it can sometimes be easier to work it out. My mental dilema was that I didn't know them.

Let me explain that I said I agree to a point. I work with mostly kids & limited experience coaches (LL all levels & school), and at least our LL emphasizes learning. A problem I see in several sports is calls (even right ones) that aren't understood by players and coaches, confused further by inconsistent calls, so how are they supposed to learn? Yes, they should all read the rule book and attend clinics. If everyone knew the rules half as well as Mr. Rowe, for example, we would all have a lot less grief. But if we, as experienced umps that do these things still struggle with some of these calls, how are they supposed to figure it out?

I hope that more umps will tend to look for help when you have the luxury of a 2 or 3 person crew, and I would like to encourage talking (calmly, professionally, of course) with coaches and players in some circumstances so that we teach as well as officiate, and sometimes learn something too.

Good discussion!

I'm with Bob on this one. At some point, the players and coaches have some responsibility to know what they are supposed to do. No matter how bad the call is, judgement or otherwise, my partner is going to have to ask for help. That doesn't mean I ignore him/her, it means I do not intervene without an invitation. I will approach any discussion in which my partner is taking place as protecting him/her during a discussion is part of our job. I will attempt to make eye contact and give him/her a "come hither" look, nod or other bodily movement to indicate that I would like to have a word with them.

If I'm approached by an offended player or coach, I will explicitly tell them that I cannot comment on the play, that my partner must come to me. I use a multitude of lines that do everything, but instruct them on the proper way to handle the situation.

If the team is that dense they cannot pick up on the indicators or do not know what to do, then I make no further effort to intervene. I will do everything I can short of stopping the game and tell my partner s/he kicked the call. I will do nothing which may embarrass my partner as none of us (who have all kicked a call at some point in our careers, more early on than now, hopefully) would want our partner to do that to us.

I have learned in the past few years that when I am having a conversation with my partner, not to be afraid to lend some body language to a conversation including pointing to the area of a play to give the impression that there may have been more possibilities than the obvious. Part of our jobs as partners is to help and teach and if that means doing whatever I can to not embarrass them, I will. The one thing I will not do is call someone and request my partner be red-lined.

These are little things we should all be learning. A couple of years ago, an umpire attempted to DQ a bat for dents. Problem was that it still fit through the ring and there was no major damage to the bat. When presented to me as the UIC, I just openly blurted that if the only problem with the bat is dents and it passes through the ring, he needs to allow it. As an afterthought, I realized that I should have had a private conversation with the umpire before having him return the bat to the team to use in that game. I'm sure that would have made the umpire feel a bit more comfortable and that the team would not see the change of decision in a negative way. Like I said, little things.

Well, I was hoping to stay outta this one but it looks like I can't resist the temptation. I agree with most of everything I've read so far, with maybe a small exception.
Bob, in your reply about not discussing a call if not asked by a coach. Are you talking about a judgment call or possible rule application or interpretation? In my opinion, if it involves a rule and one of us knows the correct application and our partner does not, then it needs to be discussed and applied correctly, with or without being requested by a coach. It can only save us a little heartburn at a later date. Let me give an example. Let's say a coach asks your partner "can the same courtesy runner run for the pitcher and catcher?" In Federation the answer is no, the same runner can not run for both. However, your partner answers "yes" to the coach. If you know this is an incorrect application of the rule, would you allow it if your partner doesn't ask your help? If you do allow it, what happens the next time you have that same team in a different game, with a different partner and then you apply the rule correctly? If I misunderstood what you meant, please correct me. If my opinion is wrong, I'm sure I'll be hearing it from some of you guys........

I agree with Buck here. If your partner is not applying the correct rule or interpreting it the wrong way, that needs to be corrected, whether the teams know the right rule or not. If you don't, then it will make you BOTH look bad, not just your partner.

Just like Buck said, if you let an incorrect ruling stand, then have the same team, and the same rule and then use the right ruling, you are opening yourself up for a big argument. What are you going to say, "Well, I knew what the right ruling was, but my partner didn't ask for help so nothing I could do, but now we are doing it right." Not very good officiating in my opinion.

I hear officials here all the time complaining about how the coaches and players don't know the rules. Personally, I would not let an incorrect ruling stand regardless of whether the teams know the rule or not. How are they going to learn if we don't apply the correct rulings every time.

First, as we all know, game management is an essential part of calling the game. Game management suffers when you or your partner look bad. Game management suffers if you allow your "get it right" impulse to cause you to barge in uninvited to overrule your partner.

In the situation of the coach asking in advance for a ruling on courtesy runners, that is not the same thing, IMO, as making a call during live action. You can usually find a diplomatic way to get the correct information to the coach and giving your partner a face-saving out. Preferably, give your partner the info and let him correct his own statement.

Anyhow, don't so easily reject the practice (requirement for ASA) that you cannot overrule your partner; he must ask for your input and then make his own decision. Otherwise, game management suffers.

Work out in your pregame the hand/face/body signals you will be using to indicate that your partner should be asking for your help - that you saw something that he didn't or that you ruling would have been different. Then rely on him to take advantage of them.

I'm still trying to figure out the original post. How can an umpire, with or without being asked, overturn a "foul ball"? Once the ball is called foul, the ball becomes dead and all action ceases.

That's what I thought, too.
 

Herein lies my confusion with the first post. I haven't been at this very long, but it has always been my opinion that "foul" was the one call that couldn't be reversed, because once called, the ball is dead and play is stopped. As someone else asked, where would you place the runners?

I have to also think that sometimes we might be looking at the phrase "overruling your partner" in the wrong sense. I don't necessarily see it that way. I think a lot of it has to do with the manner in which it's handled, but still with the emphasis on getting the call right. If we really want to get too hung up on the "overruling" term, we'd better realize that to some people, anytime we go to our partner asking for help after making a call, and that call is changed, it still could give the perception that our partner reversed or "overruled" the call. Notice, I said "could." What about when the plate umpire calls a ball on a checked swing, only to have the pitch called a strike by his base partner, on appeal. Sure, this is after an appeal, but in reality is his partner "overruling" his call? I don't think any of us look at it that way. I know this is a different situation but in the case of the checked swing, when the catcher or coach is shouting "check it", they're not asking us to go to our partner for help, they're telling us "check with your partner because I don't agree with that call." I know that some of the response to this will be that, in this instance, your partner is asking for your help, but I'm just trying to say if you deal with your partner in the right manner, we will eventually get the call right.....

Fair called Foul
 

"blue" & "striker991" raise a good point about the 1st. scenario. My earlier post was a discussion in general, but I have to ask "greymule" what was done besides calling it fair? It was a deadball situation because it was called "foul". Did you treat it as a "no pitch"? With < 2 strikes, the foul is also a strike, so we have a batter that hit a fair ball assessed a strike for his trouble until you ruled it fair. So that could be removed, but no way any continuing action could stand.

We were lucky in the play in question. Both the offense and the defense played as if the ball had been called fair, so it was easy to see exactly where the runners would have been with the correct call.

However, had the batter stood dumbfounded at the plate and F7 let the ball roll to the fence, I guess there would have been nothing left to do but keep it as a foul ball.

As for judgment versus rule interpretation, I can see leaving judgment calls completely alone unless our partner asks for help. However, with a rule, we have to have some way of getting things right without simply announcing that our partner's ruling was in error. Certainly the argument that we may see that call again with the same team is a strong one.

And there are many ASA rules that ASA coaches, often men brought up on baseball (even in FP), don't know. How many ASA coaches know that if B4 bats instead of B3 and hits into a double play, the defense can appeal and get 3 outs? In baseball, if they appeal, it's one out and B4 bats again. And in Fed softball, it's two outs and B4 bats again.

Last year, in a tournament game between two very good SP teams, both packed with former baseball stars, R1 was hit by a fair smash while in contact with 1B. Both he and the defense started off the field thinking R1's being hit was the third out of the inning. We corrected the situation, but we could have called practically anything and those guys would have accepted it. The coach of the offense, who has managed good teams for 30 years, told me after the game that he had never heard that the runner was protected while on the base!

It's hard enough for us umps to remember every last detail of whatever association we're doing. We shouldn't trust coaches to keep us honest!

Sorry off topic but gotta ask
 

And there are many ASA rules that ASA coaches, often men brought up on baseball (even in FP),don't know. How many ASA coaches know that if B4 bats instead of B3 and hits into a double play, the defense can appeal and get 3 outs? In baseball, if they appeal, it's one out and B4 bats again. And in Fed softball, it's two outs and B4 bats again.


Newby to FED ball but I thought the outs would remain and B3 would also be out and B4 starts off next inning just like ASA. Please correct me if I am wrong


Don

In Fed the defense gets an out for the batter who failed to bat when (s)he should have, plus outs for any runners put out during playing action. But in Fed the batter is not out (as in ASA).

Clarification
 

In FED ball, when an improper batter completes her time at bat and a legal appeal is made - regardless of what she did - she is removed. If she was put out, the out is removed. If she is safe on base, she is removed from the base. (Its as though she did not exist.)

Then the proper batter (who failed to bat) is called out. The improper batter is returned to her correct place in the order. If she follows the proper batter (who is now out) then she bats again - fresh count. If she is two or more positions down in the order then she goes back to the dugout to await her turn.

All other outs on the play stand. In the above scenaro, if the first or second out of the double play was the improper batter, then her out is removed and there is no double play, just a single out. But the proper batter is called out, so you end up with two outs total.

If there were two runners on base that were put out (and the improper batter was safe), then the improper batter is removed and the double play stands. PLUS the proper batter is out. So you can get three outs on the play in FED ball.
WMB

THANKS
 

appreciate the clarification and I think I've got it now


Don

Don,
That's one of the differences between Fed & ASA. Several years ago, I put together a list of those differences - it's out of date now. But there is a John Bennett in Ca who has a handbook of differences amongst Fed, ASA, & NCAA that is pretty good. He's charging $7 this year. His email address is
[email protected]

Steve M

Re: That's what I thought, too.
 

There was a very lengthy disucussion on this very topic on another discussion board last year. The scenario was that the ball landed past third base inside the foul line by three feet, obviously fair, and the umpire called foul ball.

My opinion is that once a foul ball is called, the ball is dead and we move on to the next pitch. Others felt that the umpire could use the "umpires may rule on any situation not specifically covered in the book" (the rule reference number escapes me) rule to place the runners where they would likely have ended up and play on.

Let's just say no consensus was reached!

Re: Re: That's what I thought, too.
 

Yeah, I love that one. How can (ASA Rule 10) apply when FOUL and FAIR along with the effects are clearly covered in the rule book?

Some people just like to make them up as they go along.

One cannot use rule 10 and place the runners where he thinks the runners would have been in this situation. Once "foul ball" is called, the play is dead. To allow the umps to reverse the call to fair and place the runners where they think they should be, the umps would have to assume everyone would have been safe. The play is dead, and you go to the next pitch.
Reversing the foul ball to fair and placing runners is worse than the original call of miscalling a foul ball.

The "get it right" opinion seems to be leading, so I thought I'd weigh in on the other side.

In each of the 5 examples in the original post, his partner made rules interpretation errors that can be corrected. For the IFF, a runner who does not retouch after first touch by the fielder is subject to being out on appeal. If the umpire called the runner safe, there is time to get it right. It should start with a request for time by the coach. The interference calls and the foul/foul tip issue each result in a dead ball. At that time the coach should be asking for an explanation. The one-and-one award is also during a dead ball. The question comes down to process – how to get it right. The rules for all codes say we can never overrule our partner or offer help that is not asked for. The same rules provide for the right way to handle these cases. When the coach hears the explanation, he should explain to the umpire his understanding of the rule. If the umpire does not realize his mistake, the coach should protest the game. At that point, the umpire is supposed to call his partner in for a consultation. In each of the above scenarios, the guy who didn't make the call should have been asked. If he wasn’t because the coach didn’t know how to protest correctly, that’s not our problem.

To the coach who says, "You know that's wrong!" I would say, "You know who you need to talk to in order to make sure the call is right – go see the umpire who made the call!" If the coach doesn’t know his job, it’s no skin off my teeth. It does matter if the coaches don’t know the rules and accept your partner’s mistakes without question. But it only matters to them, not to us. In a discussion after the game, preferably over a cold one with fellow blues, I would defend my position by saying that I want the game called correctly, but I’m not the one out there that missed the opportunity to get it right. I want to help, but I will follow the rules in doing so.

As for the fair/foul changed call, I don’t see how that could be made right. Once he called foul it was dead and there is no way to know what would have happened. (If everyone ignored the call and played, that’s different.) The biggest difference in this play is it is a judgment call and the others were rules interpretations. No way to get this right after the fact.

In rule interpretation, I'm thinking of plays in which my partner was so sure of himself that he would not listen to any entreaties from coaches to consult with the other ump (me). R1 returning to 1B after F6 catches line drive, F6 tries to double up R1 and throws ball into stands, BU gives R1 1B and 2B and refuses to check with PU because he's certain his award is correct. BU won't listen, so <i>now</i> the coaches, having tried proper channels, come to me.

PS. In that instance (years ago), BU's mistake was not excusable, but it was understandable. BU had done a lot of USSSA, and I think at one time they did award bases that way, at least for a certain period.

In cases of foul and fair, it seems to me that there are some "foul" calls that are not changeable, and some that are. Live balls where everybody stops at the call of "foul" pretty much have to be dead on the spot. But if B1 hits a liner off the fence two feet fair and pulls in with a double as PU calls it foul, to me that's different.

But it doesn't take much imagination to see where that will lead. What if PU calls an obviously fair ball foul, B1 pulls into 2B, and R1 gets thrown out at home? If the umps stick with the obviously incorrect call of "foul," they will take a lot of heat, but otherwise they leave themselves open to insoluble complications.

Guess we better get it right the first time.

Fair or foul is an easy call.(well not easy but)

if the plate umpire called it a foul its a foul no matter what. (if hes wrong he has to eat it) runners go back and the batter has the foul counted to his count.

what was the base umpire doing watching the ball anyway? its not his call.

I also have a question on the dented bat issue, Is a dented bat allowed used in a NIF/ISF game as long as it passes thru the bat ring? In ASA if the bat is dented in any way its out, get rid of it because its not to be used in the game. small dent or large dent its out. If the player wants to complain that he spent $400.00 for that bat just last week, theres nothing I can do to help him, sorry.

Also by dent Im looking for a dent not a pin size mark.

thanks

Highschoolwhitehat,

In ASA, if the dented bat passes through the bat ring it IS allowed.

Bob

It wasn't that it was my job to watch the fair/foul ball. I simply saw it land a yard fair, and both F5 and R3 had blocked PU's view of the line.

Yes, you eat the blown foul call—in most cases. But if PU calls foul on a ball that actually hit the foul pole above the fence, that can be changed (I know that dead ball cases are different). And what about winning run on 3B in bottom of 7th and, let's say, 1 out? BR hits a line drive that lands obviously inside the LF line and then PU calls it foul. R3 scores. Do you still send him back and eat that one, too?

Yep

Easy to say. Actually sending the runner back to 3B on an <i>obvious</i> game-winning hit is something I don't think I'd do.

If you deny the hit, you will be responsible for a famous horrible call that everyone will always remember. If you reverse yourselves and let the run score, the defense will gripe but they and everybody else will know the game ended as it should have. With that choice, I'll take the right call and sleep a lot better.

Bob, is correct. As long as there is no other obvious damage to the bat. A dent is a dent, not a crease or a crack.