Ejected fan
 

Daughter played in our first tournament yesterday. NSA rule set. Late innings of a game we're winning 6-3(?). A fan makes a comment to the PU that our coach is delaying the game and shouldn't be allowed to. I don't hear anything else and all of a sudden look up just as the fan throws an umbrella against the fence toward the umpire (the fence was the only thing separating fan & ump).

PU ejects the fan. As I'm walking to my car following the game, I see the ejected fan sitting down the LF fence (about even w/left fielder, maybe a little deeper).

We played the same team a couple hours later and I see the fan sitting in the bleachers. We had different umpires by that point.

My question is... I thought if someone was thrown out (coach, player, fan), a) they had to leave the complex (sit in the parking lot?) and b) are not allowed to return. Obviously, even though this was a small tournament (only two fields), that's kind of hard to regulate short of the umpire letting organizers know, and that's even an iffy thing.

Not that I'm planning on ever getting thrown out, but this is the first time I've seen a fan ejected.

Same game, that team had two ~10yo boys running the scoreboard. Umpire called a strike 3 to end an inning. One of the boys started criticizing the call.:eek: I'm not talking a "normal" fan reaction, I'm talking repeated comments on how the ump blew the call. I was kind of surprised PU didn't ask for an adult to run the scoreboard.

Why!!!
 

Why does an umpire even acknowlege what fans say? 90% of the time they don't know the rules and they certainly don't know mechanics. All you do when you acknowlege a fan is throw gasoline on a fire. Ignore it unless it gets to profanity and is inappropriate for the players to hear. If that happens, go over to the coach, take out your line-up card as if you're talking about the game and politely tell him that he needs to remove the fan. It is his responsibility to control his parents and fans.

I don't know why he acknowledged it. He also talked to our fans. He overheard us talking among ourselves about a ruling question and told us the correct answer.

Are you saying the PU didn't have the power to eject the fan?

He's saying that the PU has the power to stop the game until the "problem" is fixed by the coach.

Not at all.
 

The plate umpire has that authority. However, why exercise that authority? By letting the fans know they can "affect" you, you then open yourself up for more problems. Having umpired for 23 years I find that "hearing" the fans only leads to other problems. If you have to remove a fan let the coach do it for you. I would NEVER address a fan directly. My main concern is what happens on the field. If what happens in the stands begins to effect things on the field then have the coach deal with it.

For instance. I had a 14U game where Daddy's little girl was pitching. She was having an off game and Daddy was all over her from the stands. Berating and belittling her. She began to cry. Well, a young lady pitcher with tears streaming down her face can't very well field a line drive back at her. I called time. I walked out to her and said "Would you like me to have him removed?" She simply nodded her head. I walked over to her coach, pulled out my lineup card and said "Coach, Dad needs to go now, this is becoming a safety issues and I don't want to see your pitcher get hurt. Do you?" Dad left.

No need to directly address the fans.

Normally I would agree, never address the fans, it only encourages them. That being said a coupe of weeks ago I was doing a tournament. I was on the U10 field and due to a shortage of umpires my partner stayed on the same field all tournament. The teams played on 2 fields, so we seen all the teams several times. One "Dad" in particular was very mouthy all weekend, and coaches weren't far behind but they always quieted down just in time*. Anyway the final losers bracket game and Dad is running his mouth as usual from behind the bleachers (we had rain all weekend so few were sitting most were standing behind them)
His daughter bunts down #B line (lines are long gone), I call it foul, close but I feel I was correct. Dad starts jaw jacking. Next pitch is a ball. Next pitch batter bunts again down 3B line. This one was not even as close, Foul Ball.

Dad comes running and screaming to the fence just as I turn to go back behind the plate. I don't know if the fence wasn't there if he would have been right in my face or if he never would have rushed in. My guess is the latter.

Anyway we make eye contact and before I even realize it "SIT DOWN" is coming out of my mouth. Not yelling or loosing it, just sternly. He looks for a second, kinda shocked and just as he starts to say something else he gets another "SIT DOWN" my enunciation is perfect :) He turned and went back behind the bleachers and I never heard him say another thing.

I would never advocate addressing the fans, and I was wrong doing so, could have went really bad the other way, but this time it worked out.

*= yes I fully admit I let the coaches go on too much because I have a thick skin, but I also know this hurts other umpires and I am getting better at shutting down a mouthy coach, or removing them form the game.

Before this gets sidetracked to various stories of mouthy parents, I'm still looking for answers to my questions...

If you eject someone (fan, coach, player)...
1) Do they have to go to the parking lot or just "out of sight" of the blue who ejected them?
2) Are they ejected for the game? The day? The tournament? That field? How is that regulated?

When it comes to fans, it depends on the rules of the tournament.
When it comes to players or coaches, it may depend on the rules set that you are using or the level "tournament" you are talking about.


And to add to comment's made earlier in regards to spectators.
1) In general, I don't hear spectators.
2) In the event that I really felt something HAD to be done, I do not believe in addressing the fan directly, nor do I agree with burdening a coach with that responsibility. I would look for the tournament director to handle the situation.

1) ASA 4-8-B: The ejected participant must leave the grounds and have no contact with the umpires or participants in the game.

I enforce that as out of sight, sound, smell....

You said "fan, coach or player"...For me, this would just be "coach or player" as I do not address or engage the spectators.

2) Straight by-the-book, ejections are per game. However, depending on the policy of the individual league or tournament, suspensions can be issued for future game.

If you are doing a tournament, you get the tournament director or a representative and have them remove the spectator. In school ball, you tell the home coach to get security to have the person removed. They must leave the complex. In all of my years, I've only had to deal with spectators once as the home coach in a tourney came to me and complained that a spectator was saying obnoxious things to his pitcher and players. So I get the TD and have them take care of it. I don't worry about spectators - they are not within the lines of the field. Bottom line, as long as you tell the TD, home coach or security to have him or her removed then that's all the attention you ever want to give spectators.

As far as players and/or coaches, if they are adults: adults who are ejected must leave the complex and for this game they are ejected. (For sake of argument, as long as they are not able to be seen or heard from the field, this is sufficient and same as leaving the complex). If there is another game that day, they may return for that game, unless the league has rules that give suspensions to players/coaches for ejections. We do NOT handle that - that's for the league to decide.

If the ejected participant is a player who is a minor: They are restricted to the bench in school ball (we are not to have them leave..as an unsupervised child we would not send them away.) In tournaments, we tell the coach that they must leave the dugout if there is someone who can supervise them (Is mom and/or dad or another guardian there?) and if not, they are restricted to the bench. Of course, we do not want to hear them anymore from this point forward - but then again, once they are ejected, I no longer hear them anymore anyway. :D As far as league games, it depends on the league rules but I would expect it to be treated the same as a tournament.

Hope this helps.

ASA does not give the umpire the authority to eject anyone other than a game participant (team member).

Don't care about the fans. If it is bad enough that it affects the game, the coaches can deal with it. If they refuse to handle it, then we just stop playing.

Thanks guys.

Like I said, I had never seen this before, so I didn't know what could/couldn't be done.

My position (and I also taught it to new basketball officials in my basketball officiating class) is that an official should ignore fans unless one of the following happens: (1) A fan threatens a participant (game official, player, coach, or bench personnel) with violence; or (2) A fan enters the playing court/field; and either (1) or (2) happens, the game official should stop the game if necessary and notify game management of the situation and let game management. Otherwise, ignore fans no matter how stupid their behavior becomes. That said, a fan throwing an umbrella against the backstop fence in protest of an umpires decision falls under situation (1) above.

MTD, Sr.

What about spectators (I refuse to call them "fans"), inciting the players to problems on the field or disrupting the players' attention?

If it's a safety issue or out of bounds (according to your standard), have the coach address it. It's NEVER a good idea to eject a fan directly. Let coach (or possibly TD / game admin) deal with it.

I think maybe Cecil was suggesting that as a 3rd situation where the umpire would stop the game and notify site management (adding to MTD Sr.'s 2 situations).

Correct!
Sorry if I confused you Mike by my often cryptic posts. As mioost knoe I can't ype wll, so I avoid ut. :)

And of course, always via the site management. A lesson learned long ago.

I had a small SPECTATOR issue in a 12U game the other night

Game was a tight one. I had warned the 3B coach that the runner on 2B was leaving too early in the 3rd inning. . .he asks "how can you see that". . .and I said "Simple, when I can see the entire body of the runner on second BEFORE the pitch is released, she is leaving early." NO COMPLAINTS!!

Fast forward 2 innings and the same girl is on 2B. This is in a bases loaded, game within 1 run, between the top 2 teams in the division. SHE LEAVES EARLY AGAIN!!! THe pitcher hadnt even started coming forward when I see the runners entire body moving towards 3rd. I step out and call her out. THE 3B COACH IS FUMING AND YAPPING AT ME, THE 1B COACH IS FUMING. . . .From the stands I hear

"Thats F*&^ing ridiculous, I have umpired professionally for 20 years and I havent seen such a F(*&ing bulls*&^ call in my life." At this time I am walking over the HC to warn him about the spectator when I hear "They've been doing it too the whole f*&^ing night, call it both ways!"

Since I was at the fence where the spectator was, I veered from the coach, gave him a warning, walked over the Spectator and gave him a warning.

Then I hear "Hey BLUE, why did I get the warning, we dont even know who this guy is!!"

Order was restored, the spectator backed off. I come to find he is a local guy who comes to watch games and has had police escorts out of the complex numerous times in the years past. . . .

My two cents: First, don't talk to spectators. Period.

Second, don't "warn" the coaches. Period. If she is leaving early then call it. If it was happening in the third inning, then call it in the third inning. Don't warn and then two innings later call it.

Third, If there were bases loaded in a tight game, and she was leaving early all game, why wasn't she called out before reaching second base? And how come your partner didn't call her out when she was at first, assuming she was there prior to her being on second, and assuming she was leaving early?

Fourth, don't go looking for trouble....it finds you anyway. Bases loaded, I want to make sure the girl on third isn't leaving early. The girl on second isn't going far with a runner ahead of her.

Again, if she was leaving early, then call it. I'm just tossing my two cents over how you managed the game and these situations. It reads like you were stirring the pot a bit and then were surprised at the backlash you received.

Thanks for the input - and I never take posts personally. . just need to clarify your assumptions

R1 reached on single, R2 reached on double, R1 to third, R3 HBP. That's how the bases became loaded in the 5th (dont recall the 3rd inning)

1) League rules state the first time a runner leaves early, it is a warning. . .anything after is an out.
2) I never said she was leaving early "ALL GAME" We can assume she did, but 2nd is where I caught her - (twice)
3) I had no partner
4) 2nd base is the most obvious to see an early lead - period!

Just wondering how I stirred the pot? By enforcing a rule? By talking to a spectator who would have kept on going like the energizer bunny if I hadn't warned him with an ejection?

Where, in my post do you think I was "surprised" to hear the backlash - I expect to hear backlash when I make tough/unpopular calls.

That spectator didn't deserve a warning. He needed to go ... PRONTO!

Neither do any other rules.

I can certainly understand and appreciate the position you're in on this call. If the league rules state she gets a warning, then whether we like it or not, she gets the warning.

In my opinion, the better way to handle it is to never, ever talk to the spectators. Nothing good ever comes of it. If there's an issue, find a coach and have them deal with it. If the spectator is that bad and has no affiliation with either team, then have one (or even BOTH) coaches handle getting this guy outta there. Hold up play until the guy is gone, and if he won't leave on his own, let 911 handle it. 99 times out of 100, he'll be long gone before the police arrive.

But addressing the spectators is almost guaranteed to stir the pot. They LOVE going after us umpires, and the moment you show any sign of being affected by even one of them, the rest of them will be all over you. It ain't worth it.

abuse of power
 

LL Seniors Div. End of inning, outfielder walking slowly to dugout, no one from other team on field yet. BU tells OF to hurry up. OF says ok, doesn't move much faster. BU ejects OF player for not hurrying, "I want you out of here, gone, pack up and get out of the dugout".
No word to coach who finally finds out why the ejection. Player's parent is told why by coach. Player and parents leave in a huff. Passing the 1st bas fence on the way out, the parent claps and chants something (non-profane) about the umpire hustling. Parent is then banned from attending the next game.

Wasn't there, but I think a reliable report. Ump has been umpiring many years, and oh, is President of the league.

No conflict of interest there, huh? :confused:

Based on my experience, I think there's a HIGHER probability of the report being inaccurate coming from the President of the League. This is an AWFUL combination. Coach/Umpire is bad. Coach/Board is bad... Umpire/Pres is awful. Granted, I don't know this particular individual and could be wrong... but defending his integrity by telling us he's the Pres is really doing exactly the opposite.

That aside - sounds like a power-hungry umpire with a chip on his shoulder who needed to flex his muscles. Since when do we, as umpires, give a flip about how fast a player leaves the field. Unless someone's out there looking for a fight, I see no reason to even address this.

Sorry, if my usual "crypticness" confused. The paragraph "Wasn't there, but I think a reliable report. Ump has been umpiring many years, and oh, is President of the league. " is about two different people. The first a spectator who told me, the second the calling umpire.