2 outs, batter hits ball between outfielders. Batter-runner misses 2B, pulls up at 3B when F8, known to have a gun, fires a bullet towards 3B. Ball sails way over F5's head, clears dugout, and last seen bouncing off red SUV 6 rows into parking lot.

"Dead Ball" says Blue. "Appeal at 2B" screams defensive coach, "she missed the base." First base coach is telling his runner to go back to 2B, says to BU "she gets to complete her running during dead ball before you award her bases, right blue!" 2nd Defensive coach is screaming "NO way! She has to stay at 3B." 3B coach wants her to go home, knowing she gets that base award.

1. Do you allow her to return to second, deny the appeal, and award her home. Run scores, still two outs.
2. Not allow her to return to 2B, grant the appeal. No runs, end of inning.
3. Not allow her to return, award her home, grant appeal. Timing play, run scores, end of inning.
4. If you said no to #1, is there anyway you could say yes?
WMB

Speaking ASA SP.....
 

Not a definitive answer, but I remember bringing this up in rules discussions because ASA changed the rules about this before last (2002) season. Fortunately I haven't faced the situation yet because I think blues have been given a clunky way to handle this. (Hope I'm wrong and someone like Mike has a more elegant answer.)

The way I read all the written change advisories I've seen is: Yes to option #1, Blue is supposed to KIND OF award the runner the bases she would get on the overthrow...BUT if she doesn't then return, on her own (against the umpire's seeming "order"), to tag the missed base, and she's then appealed at second, you then must overrule yourself and call her out. (This wouldn't arise in your scenario because the offensive coach is on his/her toes and is ordering the runner back.)

You don't allow the attempted appeal at 2nd because though the ball is dead the play in this case hasn't completed yet, the appeal has come too soon.

And I know there's some rules situation (which may not apply here) saying that runners can't return on a dead ball thrown out of play unless it is clear that the throw out of play was to keep the runner from retreating; I don't know what relationship that has to this situation. (Okay, Mike, don't have a cow that I can't cite section numbers, it's late and my book is downstairs in a junky basement I just can't face on a five-degree night.)

But if the above is correct, I'm still not sure what language I would use to make it clear that home is a CONDITIONAL award that can be safely cashed only if she follows the re-tag procedure (and somehow not telling her what that procedure would be).

I can just imagine the hell that would erupt in my games if I awarded a runner home and then called her out at 2B. If I were the manager I'd tell the blue "You told her she had home." And I think the manager would have some justification for feeling double-dealt. It IS craziness, you got that right.

Then again, the guys and gals I call for ain't the sharpest crayons in the plastic bag anyway. In one co-ed game I said "take second" to the male batter after ball four so he'd know he was entitled (it was early in the season and most players weren't yet tight with the surpassingly weird co-ed walk rules). Doofus immediately set out toward second ... STRAIGHT toward second ... right across the mound. Wasn't he surprised to be the victim of a leisurely appeal out. "Duh, hey, Blue, you tol' me ah could take second!" Yes, dolt, but most runners who get to second arrive by way of touching first. Still, in tribute to this enduring stupidity, I changed my practice and quit telling walking co-ed male batters to "take second" ... now if I tell them anything at all, it includes "touch first" as a necessary first step. Maybe I should add, "and don't forget to lay down the bat."

-- KENTUCKY "Help, My ASA City Officiating Corps Has Been Hijacked To NSA Effective in Three Months, Where's The Catalog, I Need All New Stuff" BLUE

Loose end
 

....oh, and also on the play I award F8 a body-shop invoice for his wild throw bashing in my nice new red SUV. ;)

Forgot to say . . . . .
 

FP - FED rules (or probably most other Girls FP)

Speaking FED:

See 8-4-g(2) "When the ball becomes dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon if she has advanced, touched and remains a base beyond the missed base or the base left too soon. A runner shall not be declared out if a fielder deliberately carries or throws the ball into dead-ball territory to prevent that runner from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. "

In your sitch the BR is awarded home. If she has reached 3rd when the ball goes dead, she may not return and touch second. If the defense appeals she is then called out. She is out even if she has returned to, and touched second, because the above rule prevented that return from being recognized.

You are nor "overruling yourself", you are mearly administring the rules. The mechanic I would use is to declare the ball dead, point the BR to home, and then as soon as she completed her baserunning responsibity, recognize the appeal and declare her out.

Roger Greene

Bingo!
 

See 8-4-g(2) "When the ball becomes dead, no runner may return to touch a missed base or a base left too soon if she has advanced, touched and remains a base beyond the missed base or the base left too soon. A runner shall not be declared out if a fielder deliberately carries or throws the ball into dead-ball territory to prevent that runner from returning to a missed base or a base left too soon. "
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Right rule for this situation; runner can not return so eventually she is going to be called out (on appeal). I was not sure of the sequence of calls, but you made that clear. (1) Finish running (but in this case she can not go back), (2) make awards (send runner home), (3) process appeal (call runner out), (4) determine runs scored (no score).

The sequence is important. In a different scenario you could have other runners scoring, either during live ball or on awards during dead ball. If the appeal is processed last, and the third out is a timing play, then the runs scored ahead of the runner called out will count.

Interestingly, sequence doesn't matter if the third out on appeal is a force out. i.e., bases loaded, R1 on 1B misses 2B on way to 3B; can not return during dead ball. Then the third out on appeal at 2B is a force out and no runners will score.

BTW, in my question #4 above I was wondering is you could imagine that F8 - with a gun for an arm, has previously been very accurate, is an all-star player - - - might you suspect that she deliberately hit Kentucky's red SUV? In which case you would not allow the appeal per 8-4-g(2). Now imagine the hell generated from that call; I think that would be a hard sell to the offensive coach!
WMB

Re: Forgot to say . . . . .
 

Not ASA. KY Blue has it basically right, not only about the SUV, but the umpire must give the baserunners the opportunity to complete their running assignments. The book does not specify whether the assignment is progressive or returning. It does specify that a runner may not return to touch a missed base once they have left the field of play or a following runner has scored.

The time permitted is purely umpire's judgment, but, like a "missed tag, missed plate" play, I'm going to hesitate prior to making a ruling.

In the given scenario, it seems that the defense jumped right on the appeal, not giving the umpire or offense any time to respond. Thus, the runner would be permitted to return an touch 2B and then would be awarded home which means the runner would then need to retouch 3B as she advanced to home on the award.

BTW, an umpire who rules in this manner is not overturning, reversing, contradicting or doing anything remotely of the kind. That is a misconception often held by those fellas who work with the boys and that little hard ball.

The umpire is merely making independent ruling(s) on totally independent plays.

ASA: Just as we don't let defenses go fishing for outs "I'd like to appeal the runner on 1st then 2nd then 3rd that they left early then missed a base,etc..." I don't believe that we should allow the baserunners to go "fishing" either. On the above play we have a runner that has run 60' past a missed bag without showing signs of retreating and I don't believe that the dead ball should let her off the hook. I would need an indication that she had intent of retouching before I'd let her go back. Let's say BR missed 1st and went all the way to 3rd, F1 yells for the throw to go to 1st and the runner starts her retreat and then the ball goes Out Of Play. In this case I would allow the runner to return to retag 1st on her way to home. I kind of miss the idea of 1 plus 1 since in these cases that would be more fair to both teams. You'd tell the runner you were here at the time of the throw you get the base you were going to plus one. When they stop running you allow appeals, but that's not the rule now only wishful thinking. Jim

Well, Jim, in the play above, if the defense doesn't throw the ball out of play, they will get their appeal and the out. If the defensive coach understood the rules, s/he would have known how to handle the situation properly and probably gotten the appeal and out. If the OF doesn't hit may SUV, she gets to stay in the game :)

It's the defense who let the offense off the hook, not the umpire. When it comes down to it, ASA's rule is plain and simple. The umpire cannot honor an appeal or award bases during a dead ball until all running assignments are complete.

BTW, the 1 and 1 was far to confusing for the players and coaches. Hell, many of them can't figure out something as simple as "two from the time of the throw" and then you expect them to be able to add?

Mike, I suppose you're right it's just that I see the day comming that I have a coach burned once who from then on tells all his runners to go back and touch all bases on all throws out of play and there needs to be a line drawn somewhere to prevent that. Imagine that you have bases loaded, clean triple, and the ball goes OOP. Coach tells all 4 runners to go back and touch all the bases to prevent any possible appeal. This is where judgement comes into play. In the original post the defense should have kept it's mouth shut and then judgement is taken out of the play. It's kinda like my pre-game with coaches about collisions, if you get down or go around then I don't have to make a judgement call and we all know how you feel about my judgement. Jim

I understand your concern, but I think your giving coaches too much credit. In the scenario offered, do you believe the offensive coach would have said anything had the defense not been so quick to open their mouth?

Besides, once a following runner scores, the runner is not allowed to return.

ASA Rule Change 2003

Rule 8, Sec. 5-G EFFECT:
Add to “effect” following sub-section “G” to read: G. When the ball is in play and is overthrown (beyond the boundary lines) or is blocked. EFFECT:All runners will be awarded two bases, and the award will be governed by the position of the runners when the ball left the fielder’s hand. Runners may return to touch a missed base or base left too soon. If two runners are between the same bases, the award is based on the position of the lead runner. Once a base runner advances to and passes the next awarded base, the runner may no longer return to touch any missed base or any base left too soon.
COMMENTS:A “dead ball” should be called and allow runners the opportunity to complete their base running responsibilities. Returning to touch a missed base or one left too soon must occur prior to an award. Once the umpire awards base(s), and if a runner reaches the first base of the award, and then for any reason, retreats to a previous base missed or left too soon, this would be an illegal act, and the defense could appeal. The umpire would rule the runner out.

With the rule change there appears to be little or no difference to the Fed rule (don't have a fed book). As I see it when the ball goes out of play the umpire calls "dead ball" and gives the runner the opportunity to retag bases, if the runner does not make any running attempt or asks for the award then the umpire awards bases. Now that bases have been awarded if the runner is at or past the 1st awarded base or goes to an awarded base and then attempts to retouch a previous (awarded or not)base then it would be an appeal play and the umpire would rule the runner out. So in the original post the defense jumped the gun and is SOL. If, however, the coach keeps it's mouth shut and runner starts for home or asks what does she get the plate ump awards her home. If she then retreats towards 2nd the defense can appeal and the runner is out, or if she goes directly to home then the defense appeals 2nd, out. Jim

Well, I'm speaking Fed rules from southern country in Shreveport, Louisiana and I agree with Roger on this one, hook, line & sinker. The runner cannot return once the ball is dead, I would award her the appropriate base, and then rule on the appeal. In this case, an out.........

"Next?"

"reaches the first base of the award?"

I don't mean to sound like a rookie, but I'm pretty much ASA only, so I don't know the FED rules very well to compare.

The ASA rule change seems to be implying some kind of positive action by the runner to proceed to an awarded base after the award is announced by using the word "next", but then talks further about reaching the "first" awarded base.

Situation: she missed 2nd, throw made while she is between 2nd and 3rd & ball is thrown out of play. Runner comes to a stop on 3rd; umpire calls "dead ball."

Now, is this runner not allowed to return to touch 2nd once I announce the award, since 3rd is the "first" awarded base? Or, since the "next" base in the award would be home, is she allowed to return even after I announce, so long as that is her first move - back toward 2nd?

Am I parsing this too close?

I think I know the intent of the rule, but it sounds like I can strand a runner by announcing the award too soon. Or, maybe not...

If this is the existing FED rule, how long do you guys wait after the dead ball call to see if the runner has any intention of trying to return? Does it matter if a coach is yelling at her to return but she's not reacting yet?

Again speaking FED and in response to Tom's inquiry, there would be no waiting to see if an attempt is made to return. By rule (FED), the runner cannot return once the ball is ruled dead and she has advanced, touched or remains beyond the base that was originally missed. The dead ball award can be made, however after the proper appeal, she would be called out. The runner could actually be put out in a live ball appeal before the ball was thrown out of play at 3rd or as described in this situation, on a dead ball appeal. Either way, the runner is out.

Tom,

I think ChampaignBlue was referring to the ASA which allows the return during a dead ball period and the rule change which prohibits such a return once the runner advances to or passes an awarded base.

Under ASA, until bases are awarded, runners may return to retouch any base. Once the bases are awarded the only base that can be retouched is the one just passed provided you have not touched the next one.

Let's say we're awarding 2nd and 3rd on a play.

1st case: runner misses 1st and has rounded 2nd when ball goes OOP. Under ASA rule Ump calls dead ball, runner stops and (A)-turns around and retags 1st ump then awards 3rd or (B)-starts for 3rd and ump awards 3rd runner changes mind and retags 1st, runner is subject to appeal because she had already passed the first awarded base (2nd) after the award was made.

2nd case:runner misses 2nd when ball goes OOP. Ump calls dead ball and runner continues on to 3rd while ump awards 3rd.(A) After reaching 3rd coach tells runner to go back and retouch 2nd which runner does. Runner is subject to appeal because 3rd (the next awarded base) had been touched.
or (B) Before reaching 3rd coach tells runner to go back and touch 2nd. Runner is not subject to appeal because the next awarded base had not yet been touched. Jim

Since you are only awarding 3B, I'll assume the runner had not yet reached 2B at the time of the throw.

1A. No problem
1B,2A & 2B: Problem. I think the key here is for the umpire to not immediately award bases until it is obvious that the runner is satisfied where they are standing. Once it is obvious the runner is done and standing on a base, announce the award. At this point, the runner may not return. If the runner is between bases and demands to know the award, I would consider him/her committed and announce the award. In both cases, if the award is announced, the the runner may not return to touch a missed base or base left too soon.

With the new condition added about returning after proceeding to or passed an awarded base, the mechanic offered above is pure supposition.

OK, I have learned something from this thread! I need to make sure I got this, though. Here is a question.

On the original play presented, suppose the runner has missed second and is going into third at full speed. She is close enough to third when the ball goes out of play and "Dead ball" is declared that she cannot stop before she reaches and rounds third. The award of home is determined by the fact that she was between second and third at the time of the throw. Since her momentum has carried her past third (which will be the "first awarded base), is she allowed to return to touch second? Is the timing of when she can or cannot return governed by when the umpire makes the award? Is it governed by where she was when the dead ball was declared? I need interps for both FED and ASA, please. Perhaps the most important question: How should I, as an umpire, handle this situation if it were to occur in a game?

Speaking ASA

I think the key here is for the umpire to not immediately award bases until it is obvious that the runner is satisfied where they are standing. Once it is obvious the runner is done and standing on a base, announce the award. At this point, the runner may not return. If the runner is between bases and demands to know the award, I would consider him/her committed and announce the award.

This is the way I would handle it, at least for now.

JMO, of course, but...

I assume this change was an attempt to level the situation up between offense and defense on such plays.

I can see how the previous rule (ASA) allowing the runner to return from nearly where-ever (not the dugout, but just about anywhere else) to touch a missed base before the dead ball appeal would be honored was too favorable to the offense.

However, this "nail 'em to the bag once the award is announced" approach is a <u>significant</u> tilt back in the other direction, and at least until the offense gets used to it, will strand runners who had been used to going back to touch missed bases AFTER the award was announced.

Once everyone settles in, it is probably a fair balance, though.

If this was a Fed sitch:
If the runner's momentum caused her to go into third as the ball went dead, then she is just out of luck. She may not return to second if she is on or beyond the suceeding base when the ball becomes dead. (Remember, the rules arn't always fair. They are to preserve the balance between offense and defense.)

The only way to save the runner would be to judge that the defense intentionally threw the ball into DBT to strand the runner. That would not be the usual case.

The moral of the tale: Touch the bases in order the first time by.

Roger Greene

I believe the purpose of this was to give the umpire a defining moment as to when a player cannot return. With the previous rule, under a dead ball, nothing could be applied until all running assignments were complete. Since there was nothing in the book to stop them, it was virtually possible to return and touch bags even after the award because of the stipulation of always allowing the runner to return during a dead ball period unless they entered DBT or a following runner scored.

Mike,

I think the definition of reached the next base would be the base beyond the one he/she is standing on. Lets say the runner was heading to third, ball goes out of play, umpire calls dead ball. Now the runer is on third. the award would be home. as long as he/she doesn't touch home first, he/she may return to touch the bases missed. If he/she has touched home and then someone tells him/her they missed second, too bad they can't return.
Same as if the batter hit one to the gap, misses first, heads to second, ball comes in, passes second, and heads to third. No one can stop it and it goes into the dougout. The award would be third, but since the runner already passed second, they can not return to touch first. Remember the award is from the time of the throw, not when it goes out of play. In the second senerio, the throw was made as the runner was between first and second, so the award would be second and third, and since the runner is past the first base of the award,(second) they cannot return to touch first.

I think I have confussed myself.

Bob

Bob,

I'm glad to see you are still alive. I won't be at the meeting Monday, but I'm going to take the ride to Smyrna on the 3rd.

Remember, I qualify my answers as ASA. The only time a runner cannot return to touch a base missed or one left too soon on a caught fly ball is when that runner has entered DBT or a following runner has scored.

For example, a runner may score from 2B on a single by the batter, but missed 3B. Theoretically, this runner could be one step from entering DBT and realize what they did and return, retouch home, retouch 3B and home again. And this is all legal. Now, if this had happened on a HR where touching the bases are required, the moment the batter scores, the preceding runner is done and can no longer return.

Also, awarded bases and appeals are not to be applied during a dead ball period until all runners have been given the opportunity to complete their running assignments.

Pending additional info given in OKC, I would suspect umpires will be instructed to not announce awards until they believe the runner has completed their running assignment. However, once the umpire announces the award, or it is obvious the runner knows the award and advances on their own, now they may not return once the pass any of the awarded bases.

Instances where I would accept an indicator that a runner is accepting awarded bases and has completed the initial running assignments would be a runner being instructed to advance two bases on a dead ball, or a runner seeing the play and advancing when it is obvious they are doing so on a presumed award (i.e. BR advancing to 1B sees the ball go over F3 and into DBT and leisurely advances to 2B. Remember, in this case, 1B would be the first base of the award and the moment that runner commits to 2B, they have passed the "next awarded base" and cannot return to retouch 1B if they missed it the first time by.

Here is where the kicker is in all of this. As the "neutral" official, it really isn't up to us to stop the runner from returning whether permitted or not (unless they actually ask if they can return before doing so). It will still be up to the defense to make a proper appeal.

All of this is presumption based on the additional wording to the EFFECT of rule 8.5.G. I will be more than happy to report on anything I learn at the UIC clinic next month.

Bob, I have to disagree with your interpretation. I'm speaking strictly Fed rules. The rule is saying that if the runner advances, touches, or is on the base beyond the missed base and the ball becomes dead, they cannot return to the missed base. I think it's clear that the language means beyond the missed base, and not beyond the base being occupied at the time the ball becomes dead. Now, so I don't confuse you or myself, I'm simply saying if a runner misses a base (in this example, 2nd base) and they advance to the next base, and the ball becomes dead.....they cannot return to touch that missed base. The same thing would apply to returning to tag up after a caught fly ball. Once the ball is dead, they are dead! so to speak!!!!

AAAARRRRGGGG.

Sorry. I feel better now.

This post is getting confusing since it is mixing NFHS and ASA rules into the discussion, when these books have fundamental differences on when a runner may return to retouch a base.

In other words, even without the dead ball entering the picture, ASA and NFHS do not agree.

Now, in 2003, ASA changed the rule on when a runner may return, but only (so far as I know, only) when awarded bases are announced after a ball goes out of play. ASA's rule stayed the same in other situations. And, it stayed different from NFHS.

Mike, I would very much appreciate a report back on the ASA rule change and how umpires are being asked to apply it. Thanks.

I received an e-mail from an attendee at a clinic who talked and received the following interpretation from Bernie Profato.

A runner may not return to retouch a missed base or a base left too soon once that runner has advanced to and passed the next awarded base. The confusion is the timing of the award and the definition of the next awarded base. The "next awarded base" is that which would be the first to which the runner in question is advancing after the umpire announces the award.

For example: BR hits a ball which bounds to the outfield fence. While proceeding, 1B is missed by the BR. As the runner rounds 2B, F8 throws the ball over the infield and into DBT. The runner pulls up to 3B when the umpire announces the award which would be home. This announcement defines "home" as the next awarded base and until the moment comes when the runner touches home, s/he may return and retouch each base (in order, both directions) and still be within the confines of the rule.

Same scenario, this time the runner has stops and returns to 2B. Umpire announces the award (still home). Since the runner is on 2B, the announcement now defines 3B as the "next awarded base".

Hopefully, I will get something a bit more detailed in OKC.

Thanks, Mike. That explanation makes sense.

Yes, thanks, Mike. Now we know which "first" "next" base they're talking about.

However, note that in this area ASA is still very different from Fed and not quite the same as OBR, which uses the moment the ball went out of play, not the time of the award, to determine runners' obligations.

It also gives us umps a little advantage in that we can see what's going on and know where everybody is when we make the award. In OBR, it's not always easy to gauge where everybody was at the moment the ball became dead.

This explanation still doesn't explain the case book play that says a BR who hits a ball over the fence (ball dead, award made), misses 1B, and then rounds 2B can legally return to touch 1B.

Personally, my primary concern is ASA. Really don't care what Fed does with their rules. I believe that until recently, there has been too much of a baseball influence in NFHS rules. There were many, and may still be some areas, where the softball teams was litterly run by the baseball coaches and many hard-nosed, plow 'em over at the plate, win at all cost baseball coaches had a hard time grasping the women's game rules. May not have been the same everywhere, but I've seen it before. You still have baseball coaches whose only understanding of girls' FP is to forbid their players from being embarrassed by one of the female pitchers by trying to bat against them.

BTW, why wouldn't a player who hit a HR not be allowed to return to retouch 1B? Now, if you are basing this on the belief that bases earned by hitting a HR are "awards", you are going to have to find something in the book that contradicts 8.5.H (the word used is "entitled", not awarded) or POE #25 in which distinct differences are made between a HR and four-base award.