Application of the lookback rule
 

Last night the following situation occurred during a 14u game:

With a runner on 2nd and 1 out, the batter hit the ball cleanly into the outfield. The runner on 2nd rounded 3rd and headed home. The center fielder threw toward home, but the pitcher cut off the ball as the runner was going to score. As the batter rounded 2nd base, the pitcher stepped in to the circle, and on to the pitching plate.

The batter stopped about 6 feet off off of 2nd base, between 2nd and 3rd, and stood there for a good 5 seconds before walking back to the base. The pitcher did not raise her arm or make any kind of movement toward the batter.

When I questioned the umpires as to why they did not call the runner out due to the lookback rule, they told me that the runner could take as long as they wanted to to decide which way to go, as long as they held still. My understanding is that the runner must immediately commit one way or the other, and that's the way I've seen it called in HS ball.

What is the correct application here?

If this were ASA, it would not be a correct application of the LBR. The LBR states that once the pitcher has control of the ball in the circle and the batter-runner has reached 1B or been put out, the LBR is in effect. Runners that are off base must "immediately return to the base or attempt to advance to the next base."

This is EXACTLY what the runner is PROHIBITED from doing. Standing still (along with reversing direction more than once). Yuck. 100 lashes for that umpire.

Thanks for the prompt replies.

This was a house league, and both of the umps were teens. I'm not interested in giving them a hard time, but I do like let the UIC know when they've made a rule interpretation error so that it can be corrected. I wanted to check before I said anything.

However, while it is true the runner cannot stand there as long as they want, the runners must be permitted some latitude as they cannot be expected to immediately advance or return to a base just because the pitcher catches a thrown ball in the middle of a play and steps in the circle. Gotta be some allowance for them to find the ball and relize the player with the ball is the pitcher and has ceased to be a defender in the midst of a play and reassumed the position of pitcher.

One-thousand one, one-thousand-dead ball.

BTW BratzCoach...While you're hashing out the Look Back Rule, keep in mind that the pitching plate has zero, nada, absolutely nothing to do with the rule.

(Maybe you already realize that, but I wasn't sure since you mentioned it in your post.)

Absolutely, which is why...

This was about to be my next post until Tony beat me to it. :D

I disagree with a hard and fast 1 second call. I agree with the leeway mentioned by Mike. In the OP, the leeway would be FAR greater (maybe even more than your 1 1/2 second count), as the runner must realize the fielder is no longer a fielder and is making no play, than most other LBR situations. For example - after a walk, the ball returned to pitcher and the pitcher simply standing there - batter knows EXACTLY where the ball is, and knows that the pitcher is making no play. If she rounds 1st and stops, her "leeway" is going to be a LOT shorter than 1 1/2 seconds.

Depends on the sitch. I'd give about 2 seconds, 3 max.

I think the way I do it, there is some leeway, because I have the find the runners and the ball. Once that has been established, then my count begins.
If runner doesn't look for ball, then it is DMR.

I don't count. My gut will tell me when it is time.

I agree.

You agree with Mike's gut? :eek:

"the pitching plate has zero, nada, absolutely nothing to do with the rule"

Actually, I was aware of that. I mentioned it because there's no circle on our fields since baseball teams use them too. But thanks :-D

Also, on the play I mentioned, there was really more along the lines of a 6 or 8 count. After a moment of my pitcher and the runner staring at each other, I looked back and forth to the field ump, then the plate ump to see which one of them was going to call it. When I realized neither one of them was going to I threw up my hands and hollered "BLUE! Doesn't she have to go one way or the other?" at which point the runner went back to the base.

It really wasn't even close.

However, since this is a judgement call, the only question I had initially was whether or not they saw the runner standing there. Once we established that they agreed that the runner stood there for several seconds, then I questioned the interpretation of the rule, and got a lecture from the plate umpire *lol*

Again, thanks for the responses. You all are awesome.

You're right, it is a judgment call when the umpire determines whether the runner "immediately" returned to the base or attempted to advance.

Once the umpire said that the runner could "freeze," then you would have grounds for a protest.

Too fast for the circumstance. It is NOT a "gotcha" rule.

C'mon CecilUno, how do you know exactly how long he is talking about?

I can say it fast or slow.


Although I'm more of a "gut man" myself on the look back call, I do sometimes count when I find it necessary to enforce a batter or pitcher's timing.
In those cases, I'm a Chimpanzee guy - as in

1 Chimpanzie, 2 Champanzies, 3 Chimpanzies, ............

:D

10 little, 9 little, 8 little Indians could work too.:cool:

He's from Atlanta...

Wuuuuuunnnnn thouuuuusssuuuuunnnnd wun, wuuuuuuuunnnnnn thouuuuussssuuuuunnnnd daaaud bawl...

:)

I'll respond when you also translate Cecil. :p :D

The PC version would be even longer...

"10 small in stature indigenous persons..."

And I'm from Wiscooooooonsin, so... ;)

Sorry, I just finished working down south :D:D:D

Comments welcome.

ASA 16U. R1 on 3B, 1 out.

Batter fouls out to F5.

For some reason, everyone is confused about how many outs there were. F5 started walking the ball back to the infield.

3B coach turns and heads toward the dugout on the 3B side of the field. R1 is confused and about 8 feet off the base, wondering what to do.

Without all of the body language going on, F5 could have easily stepped on 3B for a DP. But for some reason, threw it back to the pitcher, who I assume was in the circle, but my focus was on the runner.

I'm waiting for R1 to do something, when somebody on the defense yells, throw it to third. At this point, R1 gets the clue and hustles back to the bag before a throw is made.

Now D coach is yelling about a lookback violation, because the ball was in the circle.

Did I miss the out?

Thanx.

When the pitcher had the ball in the circle, what was the runner doing? Was she stopped? If so, for how long? Or was she still moving?

I cannot say for certain if the pitcher was in the circle. She may have started over toward the line when the batter hit the popup that ended up foul about 15' off the line and 10' past 3B.

The runner came off the bag with the pitch and got a secondary lead when the ball was hit. She watched the catch and basically stood there. So F5 took a few steps back toward the infield, threw the ball to F1 [in or out of circle?], then someone yelled for the ball to go to third.

I guess the key would be how long did the pitcher have the ball before someone yelled and the runner moved back. Two seconds, 5 seconds?

Runner certainly didn't move toward home after the catch, but didn't immediately return to third due to the confusion on the outs.

Without that piece, you cannot rule a lookback violation. You may have missed one, but you cannot guess it, either.

All else is rhetorical.

That's how I saw it. The pitcher in the circle was hearsay evidence to me so since I couldn't confirm that, I wasn't about to invoke LB rule. Guess I was more concerned with the runner tagging or not in the event the ball did get away on the throw back from F5. Should have taken a quick glance.

I guess what I got from the coach could be termed rhetoric.

Thanx.