2 outs defense leaves field...call?
 

I solo umpired a 14U JO game. Situation runners on first and second, 1 out...runner on second tries to steal 3rd gets thrown out defensive runs off the field they think it is 3 outs. Runner on first waits with first base coach and then they start to run off the infield, runner gets two steps beyond 3rd base foul line...not out of play. Third base coach asks me "umpire two outs right?" I say, for both sides to hear, "YES and ball is in play" (ball laying on the ground in pitchers circle). Runner starts back to first base and makes it back safely. Defensive team trys to come back on the field and tag out the runner. Defensive team claims the runner is out for running out of the base line. I deny it and say your team left the field there was no play on her and she was not out. In my rules review I found ASA section 8 RUNNER IS NOT OUT. B "When a runner does not run in a direct line to a base, provided the fielder in the direct line does not have the ball in their possession". Any thoughts in confirmation to what I called or otherwise will be appreciated. Also by rule 8 B the runner could have run from the third base foul line direct to second base?

As long as the defense thinking there were three outs is not your fault than I don't see how you could kill it or do anything else besides let it play out.

As for the runners behavior, she's certainly not out, what rule could make him out? The runner could go to second as long as she hasn't passed third. Passing third is a judgment call, and I'd have trouble saying a runner missed second and third in this description. But if she stepped right over third, then I think you'd have to.

No such rule

See above. A runner is only out for leaving the basepath by more than 3 feet when a tag is being attempted.

She could have run out and high-fived the CF and then proceeded to 2B if she wanted.

I don't think I'd rule the runner had missed bases regardless of her path, even if directly over third ... possibly even if she TOUCHED third. It seems clear she was not running the bases.

I've seen this happen on occasion where the runner (or coach) realizes what's happening and the runner walks slowly to 2nd, 3rd so as to not draw attention. I don't believe I've ever seen her get all the way home before the defense noticed though.

My only comment here is that 2B may have been closer than 1B and just as valid a destination. DMR.

Not entirely sure what you mean by this.

If a runner ran from 1st to 3rd touched 3rd and then ran straight back to first, you'd deny the appeal at 2nd?

He means that when the runner realized there were only 2 outs and needed to return to her base, she could have returned to 2B instead of 1B, and that was probably even closer to where she was. Stolen base + less chance to be tagged...

You did fine. My only suggestion would be to not say the phrase I highlighted above. Answer the question that was asked.

Well, there was a reason for the "possibly"... :) My initial thought is that she wasn't really running the bases at all, and just happened to touch 3rd. However, I'm now waffling in my head over whether I would ignore that or not.

Andy...'YES' is all I needed to say. I noted that in my post game conference with myself. I do not need to announce to defense they screwed up. When they see the runner advancing they will get the picture.

Thank you.

For that matter, you could have said nothing. Honestly, would you answer a coach's question in the middle of any other play? (That said, I probably would have answered his question as well!)

Sometimes you gotta say something.

12U A pitch is behind the batter who crouched down to avoid it. Ball hits the bat behind her and bounces into fair territory. I remove my mask, point fair. Nobody's doing anything. Catcher finally retrieves the ball and throws it back to the pitcher.

I'm still standing there pointing and finally had to break protocol and said "That's a fair ball, ladies." O coach starts yelling for batter to run; D coach yells for pitcher to throw the ball to first, where F3 is daydreaming. Throw goes over, F3 wakes up and picks up the ball and tags first just before runner got there.

It was like everything was happening in slow motion, but it wasn't as good as the Baywatch opening.

Because I have a perverse sense of humor, I would have answered in a volume appropriate for the offensive coach to hear me so that when the runner started running the bases I could have a great laugh after the game from watching the defense go into Keystone Kops mode to get the player out. :p

MTD, Sr.

OK, been thinking about what I said earlier about ignoring the touch of third because the runner was not actually running the bases. And I agree it's problematical.

However, take this a half-step further.

Instead of third - for some reason R1 heads toward home, perhaps to pick up a discarded bat or something. She inadvertently touches home plate, then proceeds into the dugout, with the defensive team leaving the field as well.

If you consider touching 3rd in the OP as a baserunning touch, where runner needs to return to 2nd before 1st... then in this sitch, her touch of home was a SCORE. The defense leaving the field would mean they cannot appeal the 2 missed bases.

Except there are only two outs. And I'm pretty sure when you bring them out, and the runner from first trots back out and you tell everybody that she's scored that during the ensuing storm you'll end up getting an appeal.

What else are you going to do? Call her out for leaving the field and ignore the fact that she touched home? You could get her for running the bases in reverse order. End result will be the same in all three, no run and three outs. And you'll only seem crazy if you make the call that seems to be supported by rule.

Unfortunately, this is one of those cases where common sense is not the correct call. I'm referring to the rule as written, not common sense or whether the umpire would seem crazy or not.

The rule about the defense leaving the field of play removing the right of appeal is INTENDED to be applied at the end of an inning / game, but this is not the end of the inning. But, the rule does not actually SAY end of the inning / game (ASA), so a literal application could nullify some of the potential craziness! :)

Regarding touching bases, we can only rule on what players actually DO, not what they intended to do. We don't recognize accidental appeals, because an appeal (by rule) must be properly made, however, we do recognize accidental base touches for any other purpose by either the defense or offense.

In the case of the runner touching 3rd, I don't see how you could "correctly" ignore that; but the chances are, the defense won't be smart enough to appeal it.

With touching home, youngump, are you suggesting ignoring the touch of home to make life easier on the umpire? ;)

This play is already a cluster f---, so you may as well be correct!

No, just pointing out that it would make life easier. I don't think there's a rulebook leg to stand on not scoring the run and calling her out on appeal so that's what I'd do.

Note the smilie... I was pokin' at ya!

If you are not going to honor an incidental touch of the base by the defense..............................

If I'm picturing this correctly, I don't believe this is a score
 

Is R1 now the runner at 1st? Are you saying she didn't advance to 2nd or 3rd but went to home to pick up a bat and inadvertently stepped on home? If so how can this be a score? In order to be a score she has to touch 1st, 2nd, 3rd and home based on rule 5.5.A.1. Are you suggesting we have to assume she touched 2nd and 3rd and force the defense to appeal she missed either of those bags? Just trying to understand how you reasoned this one a score.

Yes, that's what we're saying. It appears that once she touches a subsequent base she must be determined to have missed the intervening bases and reached the succeeding base.

Actually, I'm reasoning the opposite and using this sitch to make my point. Read up higher. The runner (from first) ran across the diamond on the way to the dugout... during what was actually a live ball. She went near or touched 3rd (depending on which what-if you're reading) - my point was that I'm not positive it matters... and that if it DOES matter that she touched third and you're now going to insist she retouch 2nd before heading to first - then in the situation I posted above, you're going to have to score the run instead of putting the girl back on first base... and wait for an appeal for missing 2nd and 3rd that may not come if the coach can't keep himself in the game.