International Tie Breaker
 

I'm a newish umpire looking for clarification. Finals of a local HS tournament tonight I have the plate. Two top ten in the state teams playing and time runs out with the score tied. We go to ITB. I was taught that the runner @ second was the last batted out. Visitors place their runner on second and score her, 3 outs move to the bottom of the inning. Visiting coach puts the last out on second, which was a runner caught stealing second. Fans from visitor's team and coaches are yelling "last batted out". I check with home coach and get it straightened out, or so I thought. The last batted out goes to second, who was then subbed for - 1 run scores and we move to the second inning of ITB.

Partner comes up between innings and says that it's not the last batted out that runs at second, it's the last batter in the lineup for the inning. If #4 batter is up, #3 batter is running. I tell him that's not how I was taught, both coaches are now on board with how we are doing it and I'm sure it's correct - We're staying with what we've got. Home team loses in the second inning of ITB when they cannot plate the runner from second.

So.....I called a buddy of mine and he confirmed that I was correct, it's the last batted out that goes on second. Still not 100% sure I go the the Fed rule book. Nada. Go to the state official's manual. Zip. Finally did a search on the ISF rules page and find Rule 5 Section 6:

Sec. 6. TIE-BREAKER.
Starting with the top of the eighth inning, and each half inning thereafter, the offensive team shall begin its turn at bat with the player who is scheduled to bat ninth (9th in FP), tenth (10th in SP, 11th in SP with an EP, or 12th in Co-ed SP with EP’s) in that respective half-inning being placed on second base. The player who is running can be substituted in accordance with the substitution rules.
NOTE: If an incorrect runner in the line-up is placed on second base, this error may be corrected as soon as it is noticed. There is no penalty.

Is this the ITB we all should use? Are there others? Is ASA different, or NSA? How the heck did I and the visitor's fans and coaches all get the wrong person for the runner at second? OK I know that it's not a stretch for the fans and most coaches to not have a clue, but what they said absolutely matched what I thought was correct. Where did I go wrong???

AAARRRGGGGHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

BTW - who was on second had nothing to do with the outcome of the game. bottom of the second ITB inning 1st batter pop flies trying to hit a homer, second sacrifices runner to third, third batter strikes out looking at a belt high fastball down the gut.

That is the ITB as I know it.

Tbr
 

Your partner is correct, and all use the definition you quoted from the ISF book.
Should be in the State clinic notes, as a State adoption.

As such, it is a Tie Breaker Rule, not ITB.

Not necessarily.

The runner which is to be placed on second that which occupies the slot in the batting order immediately above the first batter of the inning.

If that slot is empty (due to a shorthanded rule), you go to the next slot above that one.

Yes,
Plater due up furthest in the batting order from the lead off batter for that inning.
That's the way I look at it.

I think all the "last out", "last batted out" confusion comes from some travel ball rules concerning Courtesy Runners (not Tie-Breaker Runner).

;)

Thanks for the info......

I was surprised that what I thought was correct was not so. Weird that this is not in the Fed manuals but it is in ASA and NSA manuals.

That's because NFHS doesn't use the tie-breaker, but does allow state associations to institute a tie breaking procedure for their own association (4.2.6)

Run rules and tie breakers are by state adoption in HS. We haven't been able to get a tie-breaker approved in Florida. :(

Does your state have a tie breaker rule? If so, what inning does it begin? (Gathering info for another tilt at the FHSAA windmill.) :cool:

Yes, but only for weekend HS tournament games, not regular season or playoff games. So, sorry, probably not a lot of help with FHSAA.

Wish you the best of luck.
Been there, have the tee shirt.

11 i& 9 Innings this year.
18, 15, 12, plus less in others! ;-)

Actually, I really don't care but its fun to gripe about.

MD - 8th inning
DE - 10th inning

:(Last batted out/last out...:(
I'm not happy:mad::
Why don't we stick to: The last person with a complete turn at bat will be the tie-breaker runner

Last batter flied out or grounded out for the tie > this one runs from second.
Last out on a base (not 1st) on a force > last batter on second; this one has a complete turn at bat...
Lats out on a base (Try to steel/early leave or something like this) > the last one with a complete turn at bat goes running...

B1 flies out,
B2 walks (further to refer to as R1),
B3 grounded out/R1 to 2nd,
B4 at bat with 2-2 count, R1 caught steeling. Tied game.
B3 is the tie-break runner! Was the last one with a complete turn at bat!

Not that difficult, I guess. (All is easy at the moment you understand it :rolleyes:)

Because that's USUALLY, but not UNIVERSALLY correct.

B1 out. B2 out. B6 hits a home run, B3 ruled out for not batting.

The last person with a complete turn at bat was B6 - but B3 is your runner and B4 your first batter.

ASA 18A Qualifier this weekend.
We got to the 8th inning in 1:25 scoreless.
During the game each of the coaches mentioned to me (separately) that their team had just not been hitting all weekend.

I told them that if we get to the 15th inning and still scoreless that the ITB would be modified, starting with Bases Loaded and a 3-0 count on B.
Someone is going to score!!!!
Of course, just kidding around with them to get some chuckles.
Fortunately home team scored in Bot 8.

Not by my book. I would have B6 as the runner; I think that's within ISF. Will check that though...

So what do you plan to do when the third batter is due up in that inning and she's still standing on 2B?

Who is the first batter due up in the TB inning? I assume it would be B4. As Altor asked, unless B6 has scored already (or been put out), she will still be on base after B5 bats. What then?

I could be semanticly particular and say that "the last batter in the lineup for the inning" by referencing the inning rather than the whole game would mean whoever is left existing in the batting order, but I won't as you are correct.

The last completed at bat was still by B3. It just happened to be filled by an improper person in that spot.
B3 goes to second.

If you take the "last person with a completed at bat" as you do above, you would have a problem in the following situation:

B1 out
B2 out
B3 out
Sub player X for B3 (for the defensive half inning)
By your logic, you are saying that B3 is up. Actually its X for B3. Ecssentially meaning the person occupying the spot in lineup where last completed at bat occurred.

No, B3 is out because she did NOT complete her at bat.

No... I don't. Alex does - my example was an attempt to show why that could be incorrect...

OOOOOOOOOooooooooooooooops....
I was reading after B2 out: B3, B4 and B5 on the bases when B6 hit that homer.
However, you're talking BOO here. Then we have:

Sec. 2. BATTING ORDER.

d. The first batter in each inning shall be the batter whose name follows that of the last player who completed a turn
at bat in the preceding inning.
EFFECT - Sec. 2c-d:
Batting out-of-order is an appeal play that may be made by the manager, coach, or player of the defensive team only.
The defensive team forfeits it's right to appeal for batting out-of-order when all fielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left air territory on their way to the bench or dugout.
1. If the error is discovered while the incorrect batter is at bat
(a) The correct batter may legally take his place, and assume the ball and strike count of the incorrect batter.
(b) Any runs scored or bases run while the incorrect batter is at bat shall be legal.
2. If the error is discovered after the incorrect batter has completed his turn at bat and before a legal or illegal pitch has been made to another batter
(a) The player who should have batted is out.
(b) Any advance or score made as a result of the improper batter becoming a batter-runner shall be nullified.
Any out that is made prior to discovering this infraction, remains out.
(c) The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat. If the next player was the incorrect batter who was called out, go to the next person in the line-up.

Then yes, you are correct B4 is at bat. The homer by B6 is nullified and has not a complete turn at bat. At the score-sheet will show up that B3 has however a complete turn at bat. Even while she didn't show up at bat...

I must read much s l o w e r, when it's in the Queens English. Sorry for the miscommunication and for making myself look like an idiot.

Mike, there is a slight difference in "not completing your at bat" and having a complete turn at bat: B3 was out for NOT BATTING. That gave her a complete turn at bat...

Think about the logic behind the rule.
What we are trying to avoid is to have a runner on base when it is their turn to bat.
By using the batter preceding the one who is due up, the odds are reduced to the minimum.

I agree and used to define just as that. Unfortunately, there would still be questions as everyone thinks they have a TWP that would circumvent it.

There are multiple ways to define it, unfortunately it seems that no matter how simple it is offered, there is always someone who doesn't get it or doesn't want to get it.

In Oregon it depends on what the individual leagues decide. Most start it in the 10th. One or two do it in the 8th. All the leagues use the 10 after 5 run rule.

I had one 10-inning game last year and one this year. The tiebreaker did its job since both times the game ended that inning.

EDIT: If two teams from different leagues are playing each other we use the home team's league rules. In state tournament games the tiebreaker starts in the 10th and the run rule is 10 after 5.

Congratulations on the game assignment. Just wondering, how does a "newish umpire" who is not sure of the rules obtain such a choice gig?

At the risk of speaking on behalf of the OP, I would bet that this is probably a smallish weekend tournament sponsored by a school, not a playoff assignment.

NFHS SP uses the tie-breaker rule? Do any states actually play slow pitch as a high school sport?

NFHS SP requires state adoption of game ending rules, just like FP.

Last I heard, Mississippi plays NFHS slow pitch in the fall (FP in the spring).

That very well could have been the case.

Tournament
 

Actually, this was a smallish tournament of approximately 20 teams. More pulled out due to the tornados that ransacked the state last week. Although the tournament was mid-size, most of the teams were in the top 10 in the state in their respective classes, including 7/10 in 6A, our largest classification. Last year I was on the plate for the final of a 60 team tournament that pitted the state's #1 6A team vs. the #1 5A team. I've been to our state camp, local college camp, ASA National camp and I've been selected for an ASA National this year. I've called the Area tournament all three years I've been umpiring, last year and this year I was selected for the regional tournament and hopefully state this year. This is not to toot my own horn but simply to say that my mechanics and on field ability are solid. I am still working on not only book knowledge of the rules, but also the application of these rules (case book vs. rules book).

Still, being a newer umpire I do get confused over the details of some rules sections, which is why I posted the question on this board. Hoping to gain some additional insight as to how I may have gotten confused was the main reason for the OP, not to confirm the procedure for ITB (or TBR as some abbreviate it).

Derwil,

Hang in there and keep reading the rules book. Continue asking questions and if you have the time and are not working games, head out to some of the games that are being umpired by the veterans in your association.

This forum is an excellent source of information.