Obstruction??

[oppool]

B1 gets a hit to deep center and is obstructed by F3 while making the turn at first. You rule obstruction at this time and figure your protection will go to 3rd but the ball is slow coming in and the runner is faster than thought. The runner is put out sliding into home. Your ruling??

This play was discussed this weekend in our metro clinic and I didnt agree with the answer that was given as correct. So I brought it here for discussion

Thanks

Don

[greymule]

I'd forget about what I thought at the time of the obstruction and try to assess how the violation affected the play. If the play at home was close, I'd cite the obstruction and allow the run to score. If the runner was out easily, I'd claim that he would have been out even without the obstruction.

Of course, I'd give the benefit of the doubt to the runner. However, I wonder if it would be appropriate somehow to indicate that the protection has ended—to "wave it off." Say I decide that he would have reached 3B. Could I announce, as the runner touches 3B, "Obstruction is off"?

However, in a FP clinic, they gave the following play: BR gets base hit to left. When rounding 1B, BR is obstructed by F3 and then is out by a mile at 2B. They said that even if you feel that BR had no chance to make it to 2B without the obstruction, put BR back at 1B. Perhaps they were advising how to rule with younger girls.

[shipwreck]

Remember, a runner cannot be called out between the two bases he was obstructed. So in this case, if the runner was obstructed between first and second and out by a mile, put them back to first. Dave

[Steve M]

Don,
A lot of what you do with this one depends on how close the play was and what you judge the effect of the obstruction to be. Your batter-runner is generally in full stride by the time he/she gets to 1B. If the obstruction is relatively minor, I'll add about two running strides to whatever happens. If the runner is obstructed by F3 and is put out by ten feet or less, I am going to award that advance base. If your runner is dead on arrival at 3B or Home, that out stands. I am not aware of a formal guidline or ruling from any sanctioning body that tells you absolutely what all the criteria is to decide what to award. I said earlier, I'll add about two running strides - more if the obstruction has more effect - to the location of the obstructed runner. And, as Dave added, the obstructed runner is golden between the bases where the obstruction took place - but I think most of your question dealt with what happens beyond those bases.

Steve M

[greymule]

Oops, I tacked on that clinic example as an afterthought, but as shipwreck points out, obviously the runner can't be put out between first and second, and so goes back to first. Nothing profound there!

I still wonder about the propriety of waving the obstruction off at some point.

[gsf23]

What I have always done when I have obstruction, and what I was taught, was that when it occurs you give the delayed dead ball signal. I would usually hold the arm out until he/she got to the base I was protecting him/her to, then I would drop the arm to show that the obstuction was now off. I didn't call it all that much, but this was pretty much what I did when I called it.

Thinking back on it after this question, it would probably be best to keep it out there the whole time in case, as this play pointed out, the runner is a little faster than you thought. If you pull that arm down, and then it's bang bang at home, or announce some other way that the obstuction protection is now gone, you'll probably have to take some heat no matter what you call. But, that's umpiring.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by oppool
B1 gets a hit to deep center and is obstructed by F3 while making the turn at first. You rule obstruction at this time and figure your protection will go to 3rd but the ball is slow coming in and the runner is faster than thought. The runner is put out sliding into home. Your ruling??

This play was discussed this weekend in our metro clinic and I didnt agree with the answer that was given as correct. So I brought it here for discussion

Thanks

Don

Actually, there is no incorrect answer to this as the umpire's judgment is what dictates the play. That's not to say an umpire's judgment is horrible and totally out of line.

However, in the play you offer, an umpire would have to predetermine how far to protect the obstructed runner and then adjust to what occurs after the fact.

A great indicator on this call would be you thinking to yourself, "no way he makes home" as the runner is rounding third. Then again, not every runner recovers from obstruction the same.

What it comes down to is that everything is relevant and only the umpire who observed the obstruction can decide whether the runner is still protected at any given point. The only thing I can say without hesitation is that an umpire should never observe an obstruction violation and instantaneously lock themselves into a given base of protection without observing the remainder of the play.

[oppool]

This was stated very clearly from Henry Pollard "If at the time the obstruction occured you determined that you were protecting the runner to 3rd and no matter if you misjudged or something else would happen on the play(error) and the runner was put out even on a very close play at home, You would call the runner OUT...

Dont know of Gary(Ntxblue)had the same discussion in his group but Henry made this point very clear at the time of the obstruction you gave the delayed dead ball signal and you determine at that time how far you will protect and if it was just bad judgement or something else happen on the play afterwards it didnt matter. If the runner went past your predetermine base and got put out then the out would stand no matter how close the play was

Dont agree but it is how I and others in the room heard it stated

Don

[greymule]

You can't always make a precise determination at the time of the obstruction (a fact their answer concedes). But, as IrishMafia says, you have to adjust to what happens after the fact. And runners do recover differently.

Why should you decide immediately how you're going to call the play? What if it's players you haven't seen and after you decide the runner gets 3B, you see that he has blazing speed and that the outfielder retrieving the ball has no arm?

The book says that in all cases the obstructed runner gets the base he would have reached without the obstruction. If after the play it's obvious he would have scored, why lock yourself into a decision that had to be made before you had all the information?

What if the batter hits a line drive into right center, and as the outfielders chase it, the runner crashes into F3, stumbles, and falls. You decide he gets 3B, but then the ball gets past everybody and it's clear that it's an easy home run, except that the BR hobbles lame into 2B and stops, holding his knee? Now what?

I disagree strongly with their advice.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by oppool
This was stated very clearly from Henry Pollard "If at the time the obstruction occured you determined that you were protecting the runner to 3rd and no matter if you misjudged or something else would happen on the play(error) and the runner was put out even on a very close play at home, You would call the runner OUT...

Dont know of Gary(Ntxblue)had the same discussion in his group but Henry made this point very clear at the time of the obstruction you gave the delayed dead ball signal and you determine at that time how far you will protect and if it was just bad judgement or something else happen on the play afterwards it didnt matter. If the runner went past your predetermine base and got put out then the out would stand no matter how close the play was

Dont agree but it is how I and others in the room heard it stated

Don

But don't you see the beauty of this? Only the umpire making the call can rule the runner out and, if it is his/her judgment, no other umpire can make any other determination.

I can understand what Henry is saying, but what if you throw out that arm on a long fly ball that has not descended yet? How can you possibly know the fielder's capabilities in advance? For that matter, you're supposed to be watching the runner, how are you going to know what happened to the ball in the outfield?

Henry's main concern was probably adjusting the award each time a ball is thrown over one player's hear or between another's legs. I know some umpires who would just get blown out of the water if they had to try and do that.

Also, remember that umpires are probably the best scouts in softball. If we see the same players on a regular basis, it is much easier for us to judge player abilities and apply that knowledge to the ruling.

This is not a big deal. The umpire is in total control and the ruling cannot be protested. You may need to explain the call to a UIC, but unless it is outrageously out of kilter, there is no problem.

[ronald]

I find it hard to determine what base to protect a runner to at the time of the obstruction. One needs to gauge the speed of the runner, how fast fielders get to the ball and if fielders bobble the ball picking it up or crash into each other. This all affects one's judgement.

Mike, we have to look at the runner and the ball in the outfield to make a judgement on where he would have gotton. I do not know how we could make this determination if we only look at the runner. We have to see the play sometime.

I'm sure the umps were trying to get some guidance on how to rule this but IMHO that advice is faulty in this instance.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by ronald
I find it hard to determine what base to protect a runner to at the time of the obstruction. One needs to gauge the speed of the runner, how fast fielders get to the ball and if fielders bobble the ball picking it up or crash into each other. This all affects one's judgement.

Mike, we have to look at the runner and the ball in the outfield to make a judgement on where he would have gotton. I do not know how we could make this determination if we only look at the runner. We have to see the play sometime.

I'm sure the umps were trying to get some guidance on how to rule this but IMHO that advice is faulty in this instance.

At first, I'm thinking, "What the hell is Ronald talking about" and then I realized that maybe I was not explicit enough.

Of course, you need to find the ball. But as far as my statement is concerned, the BU's primary responsibility especially in the scenario offered is to watch the BR touch 1B and carry him/her to 2B. After the touch, the BU should turn to try to locate the ball, but not until they are sure the runner is clear of obstruction. In this case, the runner is the priority for a BU.

If this is a one-umpire game, the priority is to determine if the ball was caught in flight. Once that determination has been made, the priority shifts to any active runners. In the given scenario the PU would come out from behind the plate, determine the ball was not caught and watch the runner touch the bases and clear of obstruction. In between the bases when s/he is sure the runner is in the clear, the PU can pick-up the progress of the ball.

There are some umpires which take the "to have a play, you must have the ball" theory a bit too far. I've seen umpires stand in front of HP and follow the ball all over the field and never, NEVER have a clue as to whether the runner touched a base or was obstructed. Even with the ball, you cannot put a runner out without having the runner involved in the play. With a single runner, there is no reason not to track the runner. Knowing where the ball is at any given time is not as important as where that runner is. Follow your positioning mechanics and you will most likely always have at least a periferal (sp) awareness of the ball. There is a much better chance of something going wrong which the umpire needs to observe involving runners than a ball being thrown around the outfield.

Veteran umpires develop a sense of where to be and look at any given moment during a play.

Sorry for the confusion.

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

Some one said something about seeing these players before, and that does help. One thing that was not mentioned is field experience by the umpire. We all should remember how it was to be a rookie or maybe even a 2nd or 3rd year ump without enough game situations under his/her belt, or clinicians rulings making us question ourselves, it's all a learning experience. Yes, you have to read the entire play, offense and defense to be able to call obstruction correctly, AND you may not get it right each and every time. Just be act and look confident when you make the call and stick by it.
Henry does make sense when you think about it---don't try to read too much into the rules. Every obstruction is a HTBT as well as many other situations. Experience with all types of game situations will help. I know that I can pick up knowledge each and every time I hit the field about something. Keep on trucking and learning to be the best blue you can be!!
Sniff, sniff, I miss my uniform and the dirt and sweat already! Maybe I will call again!

[Andy]

Originally posted by oppool
B1 gets a hit to deep center and is obstructed by F3 while making the turn at first. You rule obstruction at this time and figure your protection will go to 3rd but the ball is slow coming in and the runner is faster than thought. The runner is put out sliding into home. Your ruling??

My ruling is "Dead ball, award the runner home"

I have read about Steve M's two stride rule of thumb on obstruction some time ago and have used it with positive results.

If she is put out "sliding into home", then two extra strides would have put her at home long before the ball got there.

The defense violated by obstructing the runner, why reward them by calling the out on a close play?

[greymule]

How about the play where under normal circumstances the runner would have had an easy home run, but the obstruction caused an injury such that the runner could no longer run?

The outfielders are fishing the ball from a stream 450 feet away, while the runner, after tripping over F3, lies between 1B and 2B holding his leg? Give him the home run?

(Before somebody picks on the technicality, let's assume there's no fence and the stream is in play!)