What would you do?

hit4power · #1 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 28, 2011, 12:09pm

I'm not a blue but curious as to thoughts on the following:

HS ball under Fed, no outs, R1 @ 2B, R2 @ 1B. B3 squares to bunt and sends a spinning squibber up the first base line, clearly curving for the foul line. PU comes out from behind the plate, throws his arms up and says "Foul" ---- at the same time as F3, standing in fair territory, boots the ball into foul territory. Since half the parents are screaming "Fair ball", the defensive plays on and when the dust settles, R1 has scored, R2 is at 3B and B3 stands at 2B.
Needless to say, the DC was livid, but after both umps talk, the play stands.

I know there is a huge component of HTBT in this, but I'm curious how often you apply 10.2.m (allowing PU to rectify any situation where an incorrect call put one side or the other in jeopardy) and how do you judge whether a muffed call actually put one side in jeopardy, i.e., in this sitch the defense never stopped playing the ball.

youngump · #2 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 28, 2011, 12:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by hit4power

I'm not a blue but curious as to thoughts on the following:

HS ball under Fed, no outs, R1 @ 2B, R2 @ 1B. B3 squares to bunt and sends a spinning squibber up the first base line, clearly curving for the foul line. PU comes out from behind the plate, throws his arms up and says "Foul" ---- at the same time as F3, standing in fair territory, boots the ball into foul territory. Since half the parents are screaming "Fair ball", the defensive plays on and when the dust settles, R1 has scored, R2 is at 3B and B3 stands at 2B.
Needless to say, the DC was livid, but after both umps talk, the play stands.

I know there is a huge component of HTBT in this, but I'm curious how often you apply 10.2.m (allowing PU to rectify any situation where an incorrect call put one side or the other in jeopardy) and how do you judge whether a muffed call actually put one side in jeopardy, i.e., in this sitch the defense never stopped playing the ball.

Foul ball. You can't uncall it when it's been called.

JEL · #3 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 28, 2011, 01:00pm

As has been noted, once it is called foul, it can't be un-done.

You are mis-applying/reading 10-2-m as well. That allows for rectification when a decision has been reversed and a team is put in jeopardy.

Once that ball was called foul, play ceases. Nothing else (of consequence) can happen. The defense can't keep playing the ball, because it is dead!

CajunNewBlue · #4 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 28, 2011, 02:11pm

Can i use 10-2-m to find out what the heck a "spinning squibber" is??

hit4power · #5 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 28, 2011, 04:48pm

Thanks for the clarification on 10-2-m. So what should have happened is for the foul call to stand, everyone goes back and we have a strike on B3 and presumably a very unhappy OC over a blown fair/foul call.

But that's not what happened, so my next question is what recourse, if any, does the DC have at this point? There's nothing to appeal is there?

JEL · #6 (**permalink**) Mon Mar 28, 2011, 05:14pm

The DC can question, stomp, cuss and spit (might not ought to!) but you are correct, there is nothing to protest. It was poor umpiring mechanics, not the mis-application of a playing rule that you are dealing with.

Oh yeah Cajun, I worked opening day rec 10U stuff saturday. It is a love/hate type thing, love the games and kids, but hate that we have digressed to using pitching machines! Easy games though but really dumbs things down.

That machine can put some funky spins on the ball. If ever there were a "spinning squibber" I had at least 5 saturday. One guy was adamant that a high pop up that hit foul behind the catcher could never roll into fair territory. It did, I pointed it fair, no one moved for a while!

ronald · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 29, 2011, 04:05pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by youngump

Foul ball. You can't uncall it when it's been called.

who or what says so. 10-1-4 says different. "...If there is reasonable doubt about a ruling being in conflict with the rules (called foul when it was touched fair), the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made..."

Now go to 10.3m and make your ruling.

you put the batter runner in jeopardy and now you will put the defense in jeopardy.

what a screw up!

youngump · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 29, 2011, 04:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronald

who or what says so. 10-1-4 says different. "...If there is reasonable doubt about a ruling being in conflict with the rules (called foul when it was touched fair), the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made..."

Now go to 10.3m and make your ruling.

you put the batter runner in jeopardy and now you will put the defense in jeopardy.

what a screw up!

What's that reference? I have an '08 rulebook here but not my current one. Is that a case play?

ronald · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 29, 2011, 06:06pm

Youngump,

It is the 2011 rule book.

Ron

IRISHMAFIA · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 29, 2011, 09:20pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronald

Youngump,

It is the 2011 rule book.

Ron

It's 10.2.3.m in my book

youngump · #11 (**permalink**) Wed Mar 30, 2011, 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronald

Youngump,

It is the 2011 rule book.

Ron

No, it's definitely not. Took me a while to figure out what you were doing, first because I went to the ASA rule book first. Then I realized that was an NFHS citation. The problem is that you changed it when you retyped it so I definitely was never going to find the part you "quoted".

The rule says very clearly that fair foul decisions are final. Then you "quoted" the section that says that application of playing rules are not final. And you edited in a quote about a foul ball that doesn't belong. I realize your goal was to have the parenthesis read as your commentary, but only after checking your reference. Please try and be more careful with your quotes.

Now as to the discussion I wouldn't hang too much on the first part of that rule from a textual analysis standpoint, but given that this conforms generally to the way we call it around here, this statement certainly agrees. Though I've always figured that if I called it fair for a fixable reason that I could switch to foul and you could argue that this precludes that in high school. I don't think that was the intent.

MichaelVA2000 · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Mar 29, 2011, 09:45pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by ronald

who or what says so. 10-1-4 says different. "...If there is reasonable doubt about a ruling being in conflict with the rules (called foul when it was touched fair), the coach or captain may ask that the correct ruling be made..."

Now go to 10.3m and make your ruling.

you put the batter runner in jeopardy and now you will put the defense in jeopardy.

what a screw up!

Rule 10 ART.4....Any umpire's decision which involves judgment, such as whether a hit is fair or foul, whether a pitch is a strike or a ball , or whether a runner is safe or out, is final.

There was NO conflict with the rules when the PU called the ball foul. In the PU's judgment the ball was in foul territory when touched by a defensive player.

Rule 10 ART. 4 continues with: If there is a reasonable doubt about some decision being in conflict with the rules, the coach or captain may ask that a correct ruling be made.

There was NO rules conflict. Perhaps an error in judgment but NO misapplication of a rule.