Legal or Illegal Pitch

[whiskers_ump]

I posted this on another board, but know that several of you
do not frequent that board. So putting it here.

This happen in AFA Nats. 18U.

F1 follows everything correctly, feet proper,
arm swing, etc. Just before hand gets to far
to the side, she releases the ball from behind
her back. [F1 right handed released to left side]
This was allowed in the 2002 18U Nats.
Some wanted to call it illegal because of deception.
UIC's said it was legal because it meet all the
requirements of a legal delivery. I called illegal
because of AFA Section 10 d. The release of the
ball and follow through of the hand and wrist must
be forward and past the straight line of the body.

How do you guys/gals see this?

BTW - After allowing the pitch, she threw 5 of 6
for strikes.

glen

[greymule]

Don't see anything in the ASA book that would prohibit it, though exactly what "follow through" is on a pitch behind the back, I don't know. How did she keep her wrist not farther from her body than her elbow?

I don't see the word "deception" in my book.

ASA slow pitch prohibits pitches behind the back or through the legs. Since they specifically do not mention that prohibition under fast pitch, I assume such pitches are legal.

[Del-Blue]

Glen,

Is the AFA pitching regulation the same as ASA??
I have never called AFA, but I have a hard time imagining how a pitcher could have any control with this pitch. Second, the pitch would not be underhand illegal in ASA, Next the pitch would not be below the hip also illegal in ASA. If AFA has the same rule as ASA, this pitch would be ILLEGAL IMOH.

Bob

[whiskers_ump]

Bob,

AFA has gratefully acknowledged the NCAA's generosity in
affording the AFA permission to adopt their rules. Every-
thing is almost idential. I agree with you on it being an illegal
pitch. However, it was declared legal during the tournament.
AFA and NCAA are the only associations that I know of, say
it is a strike if the batter attempting a bunt leaves the bat
over the plate regarless of where the pitch is. Have seen this
get ugly also.

Greymule,

Deception is not in my book either. If it was some of the
changeups these gals throw would be. I have seen batters
attempt two swings on some. A young lady from Washington
State had the best knuckle ball I have ever seen. Guess it
could be *deceptive* also.

glen

[Dakota]

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
Some wanted to call it illegal because of deception.

Oh nooooooo, not a deceptive pitch!!! Where do these "win at all costs" people come from???

[Dakota]

Seriously...

she releases the ball from behind
her back.

I know Glen asked about AFA, but I don't call AFA and don't have their book.

But this pitch is illegal in ASA, as I understand the rules, due to the same clause that Glen cited...

ASA 6FP-3-F, The release of the ball and follow through of the hand and wrist must be forward and past the straight line of the body.

She needs to get her hand past the midline of her body in the forward direction before release.

It is really nice that AFA gives credit to NCAA for copying the rules, but not to ASA, who provided them to the NCAA. Very open and ethical of you, AFA. Maybe they just can't bring themselves officially to acknowledge that they owe anything to the ASA.

[greymule]

The ASA case book does not cover the behind-the-back pitch in FP. But it's hard to see how the follow-through could be forward, or how the pitch could be from below the belt, or how the wrist could be closer to the body.

Modified has so many restrictions that such a pitch must be illegal.

Curious, though, that ASA specifically prohibits pitches from behind the back or between the legs in SP, but not in FP. Maybe they figure it's so obviously illegal (or impossible) that they don't have to mention it.

How about between the legs in FP?

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

I would like to see this young lady pitch, and never having called AFA but only ASA and NFHS, I would have to say illegal.
I surely don't like the strike call on a bunt if the bat doesn't move and the ball is out of the strike zone for AFA & NCAA--definite no no in ASA although some undereducated ASA blues will call it and undereducated coaches will try and demand it.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by greymule
Curious, though, that ASA specifically prohibits pitches from behind the back or between the legs in SP, but not in FP. ...

What am I missing? doesn't ASA 6FP-3-F, The release of the ball and follow through of the hand and wrist must be forward and past the straight line of the body. specify that the release must be at the midpoint or forward? (i.e. not behind the back?)

[Skahtboi]

Tom:

That's the read that I got.


Scott

[greymule]

I'm not doubting that behind the back is illegal in FP. It's just that the FP rules don't say, as do the SP rules, "The pitcher must not pitch the ball behind the back or through the legs."

Exactly what is "the straight line of the body"? A line between what and what?

[Elaine "Lady Blue"]

Up and down from head to the ground?? Another crazy wording of a rule by ASA. Shoulders don't have to be square to 1st & 3rd like Modified, though.

[Dakota]

Originally posted by greymule
I'm not doubting that behind the back is illegal in FP. It's just that the FP rules don't say, as do the SP rules, "The pitcher must not pitch the ball behind the back or through the legs."

Exactly what is "the straight line of the body"? A line between what and what?

I agree the rule is not as explicit as the SP rule, but which of the various "straight lines" would the ball, hand, and wrist follow through to be forward of?

Shoulder to ground?
Head to ground?
Midpoint of trunk to ground?
Across shoulders horizontal to ground?
Across hips horizontal to ground?
Back of the ear to the ground?
Hip joint to the ground?

Makes no nevermind - none would allow a release behind the back.