Fed pitching question
 

I work for a variety of organizations (Fed, USSSA, NCAA small college). At this weekends Utrip meeting a pitching violation was discussed. It differs from what the Feds say. I wonder what you interpret/rule.

Pitcher stands behind pitching plate, puts her hands together and then steps on the rubber, keeping hands together. Fed casebook 6.1.1 says this is illegal as per Fed 6-1-1a. Utrip also says this is illegal unless pitcher backs off rubber or calls time. Fed seems to say illegal no matter what.

In Fed, when is the illegal pitch called? At the moment the pitcher steps on the rubber with hands together? Utrip would call for waiting until the pitch is delivered (giving the pitcher a chance to step back and negate the pitch), and then going with delayed dead ball if pitch is indeed delivered. What about other orgs? I don't have my NCAA manual with me.What do you do?

Jimmy, in ASA and Fed I make the call (delayed dead ball) when the infraction is committed. Stepping on the pitching rubber with the hands together is an illegal act and I believe that it should be called immediately. Stepping off the rubber does not negate the infraction in ASA or Fed ball, as far as I can remember. In the event that the pitcher fails to deliver the pitch, I will call time and make the proper award.

That is an illegal pitch in my area for the mentioned organizations that can't be un-done. Illegal pitch is called immediately.

Other pieces of the NFHS rules:

6.f.2: when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitching plate with both feet.

Time out could also be requested. If granted, F1 could start her pitching process over.

OR
5-1-1p "Ball becomes dead immediately (p) when an illegal pitch occurs, but no pitch is delivered to the batter."

Just so I am clear, you are not suggesting that a pitcher can step back once she has stepped on with hands together and negate the illegal pitch are you?

I'm suggesting the rules are not clear/consistent.

I attended clinics this past weekend on both ASA and NFHS.

On this particular subject, we've always been instructed to call the illegal pitch when it occurs. In the case of a pitcher stepping on the pitcher's plate w/ hands together, the concensus in both sessions is that once you verbalize the illegal pitch, 95% of the time no pitch will be forthcoming.

I haven't personally called this one many times, but the few times that I did, the pitcher did not follow through with a pitch.

The ones I've missed a couple of times are the double touches that happen from an otherwise compliant pitcher. For whatever reason, she'll do that double touch, and I'm caught a bit off-guard. Did she just do that? Then I have to pay more attention the next time. Windy days are easier, because I almost expect a pitcher to adjust a wisp of hair that might have been blown out of place.

Good discussion regarding this topic on the NFHS board....

NFHS does not have the specific exception that USSSA does for negating the illegal act of stepping on the pitchers plate with both hands together.

I believe it is an illegal pitch, delayed dead ball, but you still allow the pitcher to deliver the pitch...the batter could put the ball in play and gain a better result than the penalty for the illegal pitch.

Don't take an opportunity away from the offense for a defensive infraction.

I agree to allow the pitch to continue, but you should signal illegal once the pitch becomes illegal, so once F1 steps on the pitching plate with hands together you should signal DDB and say "illegal" that is not preventing F1 from pitching it is letting everyone know that the pitch is illegal at that point. If F1 delivers the pitch the batter has the right to hit it, if not then make the ball dead and enforce the illegal pitch.

Where do you see the confusion? 6.f.2 allows a way to legally remove yourself from the pitching position once you have brought your hands together, it doesn't erase illegal actions you have already done.

5-1-1p states to call dead ball and award for the illegal pitch if the pitch is not thrown. I don't see where the confusion is.

In NSA, we have nothing until the pitch has started (The pitch starts when the hands are separated or the pitcher makes any motion that is part of his / her wind-up.)
How could it be an illegal pitch if the pitch has not started?
I would make note of the non-compliance with "Shall take a position...hands shall be separated..." Then when F1 STARTS the pitch, my left arm would go out. I'm sure I'm supposed to verbalize at that point, but I don't. Pitch will come and we will deal with IP as described in rules.

In ASA and NFHS in the preliminaries section it states the pitcher shall step onto the pitching plate with the hands seperated, if not the effect is an illegal pitch. It doesn't state the pitch has to be started, it doesn't state the pitch has to be released, once they break a rule that has an effect of illegal pitch, the pitch becomes illegal.

Hey Man - I know you read the NFHS board which just pointed out the NFHS casebook play - which is very clear!:D;)
6.1.1 A

Speaking NFHS - Not exactly -

The Rule:
6-1
Article A: Prior to starting the delivery (pitch), the pitcher shall take a position with the pivot foot on or partially on the top surface of the pitcher's plate and the non-pivot foot in contact with or behind the pitcher's plate. Both feet must be on the ground within or partially within the 24-inch length of the pitcher's plate

Hmmmmmm so far nothing about the hands UNTILL:

a.
Prior to pitching the pitcher must take a position with the shoulder's in line with first and third base with the ball in the glove or pitching hand and the hands separated

The underlined parts are what everyone is discussing.
As worded an argument can be made that the pitch does not become illegal UNTILL the pitch starts.

I haven't looked this up in ASA, but FED answers the question directly in their Case Book (6.1.1.A) stating : May F1 take her position with her hands together? - NO F1's hands must be apart when she steps on the pitcher's plate.

:D

What about:
"6.f.2: when the hands are together and no part of the windup motion has been made, the pitcher may legally step back from the pitching plate with both feet.

Time out could also be requested. If granted, F1 could start her pitching process over." ?

I would say that the case book makes it clear that the illegal pitch has already occurred, wouldn't you?

I believe it means that nothing else that was illegal has occured to that point. If you have hands together and step on the pitching plate, you have committed a violation. And you will be ticketed.

Thanks for all the replys. My day has been crazy busy and this is the first time I've had a chance to respond. As stated by some, Fed casebook 6.1.1 is cut and dry..."F1's hands shall be apart when she steps onto the pitcher's plate. Therefore, this is an illegal pitch." There seems to be no ifs, ands or buts about it. But there is a difference between the clarity of the casebook and the wording of the rulebook. I'm not thinking that delayed dead ball works here. If it is illegal and there is no way to make it legal (as per Fed), then why let thie pitch be delivered? Spit on the ball...dead ball, no pitch permitted . Take a nail file out of her pants and jab the ball:eek:...dead ball, no pitch permitted. It seeems like Fed is saying this infraction is like that, even though they aren't clear rulebook wise.

I think I'll pose the question to my state interpreter and see if he can get some info at the national office.

I think this is serious overkill here.

It is a DDB. If the pitcher stops at that point and there is no pitch imminent, kill it and apply the appropriate rule.

But if the pitcher doesn't stop and continues with a pitch, are you prepared to tell the batter that the ball she just hit over the fence doesn't count because you don't believe the pitch should be allowed?

There are reasons an IP is a DDB and this is one of them.

Even though I logically and philosophically agree, the official word for NFHS in Delaware is Immediate DB and the pitch is dead regardless of thrown or not, along with the other Article 1 infractions.

The ASA book does not say the pitcher can remove herself, so it would seem ths same applies, unless you are decreeing otherwise.

Under the FED dead ball table it does say immediate dead ball, "IF NOT RELEASED". How can the pitch ever be released if the umpire kills the play the moment the pitcher steps on the pitching plate?

Well this is a case of different interps your "expert" says kill it once it's illegal, which is only specifically stated in the rule book under a few conditions, this is not one of them. The "expert" I have talked to says call the illegal pitch signal DDB, if pitcher throws let it be thrown, (as Irish states why take the chance for the offense take the free shot at the ball?) if not then kill it and award accordingly.

From March 2008 Plays and Clarifications on the ASA website.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch

This has the runner leaving early added into it, and the IP was for double touching not stepping onto the pitching plate with the hands together, but I would use this in the same manner to support calling the IP when it occurs then allowing the pitcher to throw the pitch. If they do not throw the pitch then kill it and make the award, as has already been discussed.

I know this is an ASA interpretation and the OP was dealing with FED but I would bet FED is on the same page.

Wrong violation. The OP here pertains to a pitcher not having the hands separated when stepping on the PP (6.1.a), NFHS does not.

Double touch or stepping off are other subjects.

I'll beat this dead horse one more time. My only point/question in the whole thing is this: what is the ruling Fed wants? I don't have a pipeline to the head honchos so I need to go my normal route (post here, read, ask the locals, ask the state interpreter). It either is an immediate dead ball or it's a delayed dead ball, but not take your choice. One or the other. And I would agree with Irish that a ball hit over the fence would be a rough one to hang your hat on and say the pitch wasn't allowed to begin with. All the more reason in knowing when Fed wants the illegality called:immediately (dead ball with immediate penalty) or after the play (delayed dead ball with coach choosing play or penalty).

I think you have missed the several voices speaking to an option you have not stated. The pitch is called illegal as soon as it becomes illegal; that part is clear in absolutely EVERY version of softball that exists. Since NFHS has declared this cannot be corrected, you call it "Illegal" as soon as she steps on the pitching plate with hands together. It is NEVER called illegal AFTER there is a play; it is only called "dead" after a play.

If called illegal immediately, as required, it is almost a no-brainer that there won't be a following pitch. I suspect THAT is the point of the DE interpretor, because there is absolutely no rules basis to declare the ball dead immediately in any violation of Articles 6-1. In fact, the only illegal pitch that clearly spells out "dead ball immediately" is a violation of 6-2-2, applying a substance to the ball, or failing to wipe the hand before contacting the ball after licking the fingers.

So, in absence of any definitive ruling that clearly supercedes 5-1-2-a, that ALL illegal pitches are delayed dead balls (like there is for 6-2-2), then ALL OTHER illegal pitches are delayed dead balls.

Again, the proper mechanic is call it immediately when it becomes illegal. When the pitcher steps on the pitching plate with hands together, verbalize "Illegal Pitch", and hold out the delayed dead ball signal. If, as will happen 99.9% of the time, the pitcher stops in her tracks, then declare "Dead Ball", and announce the penalty. In the the 0.1% of the time where she goes ahead a throws a pitch anyway, wait until all play ends, and give the offensive coach the option.

While you may consider this rule similar to 6-2-2, there is nothing in the NFHS rulebook or casebook that says to treat this differently than every other illegal pitch (other than 6-2-2).

Illegal Pitch / Runner leaves early
 

In another thread, this is posted:

From March 2008 Plays and Clarifications on the ASA website.

PLAY: R1 on 1B and no count on B2. F1 commits an illegal pitch, by bringing the hands together a second time, which is called by the plate umpire, but continues the pitch. Just before releasing the ball R1 leaves the base before the release of the pitch. In (a) B1 does not swing at the pitch. In (b) B1 swings at the pitch and gets a base hit. In (c) R1 is on 1B and R2 is on 3B at the start of the play.

RULING: The illegal pitch happened when the pitcher brought their hands together, paused, the hands separated to begin the pitch, then the hands came back together prior to the release of the pitch. In (a) and (b) the ball became dead when R1 left 1B before the pitch was released. The fact that the batter did not swing in (a) or got a hit in (b) is irrelevant because the ball became dead when R1 left 1B early. Enforce both the leaving early and illegal pitch infractions, The Ball is dead and R1 is out and a ball is awarded to B2. In (c) The plate umpire should call illegal pitch when it occurs and then “dead ball” when R1 leaves 1B too soon. R1 is out, R2 is awarded home and B2 is awarded a ball in the count.

Rule 8, Section 7-S, Effect, Rule 6, Section 3-B, Effect-A Illegal Pitch
************************************************** ********

I think I first became aware of this ruling 2 years ago and I don't quite understand the part about ruling the runner out for leaving early.
My thinking has been that there are many illegal pitches which can actually cause (if that is the correct word) the runner to leave early.

Don't runners time their leaving a base to the pitcher?
Isn't it reasonable to think that it is this illegal infraction could be the cqause of the runner leaving early?

Just wondering if I'm way off base on this one?

I know the case ruling, just seems funny to me.

Violations of 6-2-7,8,9 are immediate dead balls as well.

Only IP's that would cause an issue with the runners timing would be the leap and crow hop as the pitch would not be released as quick as would be from the push-off than what would of happened in a legal pitch.

I meant to start a new thread with that post as it is completely different than this thread - I made the correction and deleted my post here,
but to answer your comment -

Wouldn't you say a double touch affects a runner's timing?
Wouldn't you say that most of the infractions in Article 4 could affect the runner's timing?

(Lets continue this in the other thread - I'm sensitive to hijacking threads 9unless it's to talk about alcohol:rolleyes::rolleyes:)

Which should be irrelevant.

There is no "right" of or rule to prevent the runner to not have their timing disrupted. Either the pitcher released the ball or she didn't. If not, the runner cannot leave the base.

(Moved answer to new thread for organizational purposes :D)