Another ASA quirk

[greymule]

The recent attention paid on this site to runners making an immediate attempt to return to a missed base led me to re-read the ASA case book. Unlike in the various levels of baseball, in ASA such a runner can be put out on appeal immediately after missing a base.

Case book 8.8-13:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B. F1 fields a ground ball and throws to F2 at the plate after R1 has crossed but missed home plate. F2 appeals to umpire: (a) as R1 is returning, (b) [after] R1 has returned home. Ruling: In (a) R1 is out on appeal, in (b) the appeal is denied.

Of course, (b) is obvious, but notice that in (a) the fielder does not have to tag a runner returning to touch home plate.

Case book 8.8-34:

R1 slides into home plate, but misses it. [How do you slide into home plate and miss it?] F2 misses the tag. Ruling: After a brief hesitation, the umpire should make a "safe" call. If the catcher then tags the runner or the plate appealing that R1 missed home, R1 should be declared out.

Until now, I would have called these plays according to the baseball rule and required a tag by the fielder.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
The recent attention paid on this site to runners making an immediate attempt to return to a missed base led me to re-read the ASA case book. Unlike in the various levels of baseball, in ASA such a runner can be put out on appeal immediately after missing a base.

Case book 8.8-13:

R1 on 3B, R2 on 2B, R3 on 1B. F1 fields a ground ball and throws to F2 at the plate after R1 has crossed but missed home plate. F2 appeals to umpire: (a) as R1 is returning, (b) [after] R1 has returned home. Ruling: In (a) R1 is out on appeal, in (b) the appeal is denied.

Of course, (b) is obvious, but notice that in (a) the fielder does not have to tag a runner returning to touch home plate.

Case book 8.8-34:

R1 slides into home plate, but misses it. [How do you slide into home plate and miss it?] F2 misses the tag. Ruling: After a brief hesitation, the umpire should make a "safe" call. If the catcher then tags the runner or the plate appealing that R1 missed home, R1 should be declared out.

Until now, I would have called these plays according to the baseball rule and required a tag by the fielder.

A runner misses the plate when they execute a hook slide in an attempt to use as much of the basepath as allowed and avoid a sweep tag by the catcher.

What you need to remember about ASA is that a runner is assumed to have touched a base once they pass that base. This is what allows the runner to be ruled safe, yet still keeps the possibility for appeal open to the defense.

I've had many a baseball umpire insist that they will not make a call on the play above until the plate is touched by the runner or the runner is tagged out by a defender. They believe the ASA play places an embarrassment upon the umpire as it looks like the umpire is "changing" a call.

No matter how much I have tried to explain that ASA's mechanics literally makes the play two separate calls, some just cannot accept it that way.

[Roger Greene]

Baseball hs a ruling/theory that defines the action around a base as either "relaxed" or "unrelaxed". How a runner may be put out depends on the type of action on the play. (I'll stay out of the rule conflict on when a base is missed in baseball.)

I'm not aware of any softball code that uses this theory. Fed even used to recognize the accidential appeal of a missed base. (Fed baseball still does on a missed force base---and I certainly do dislike it!!!)

I've heard the ruling was developed because of the larger diamond/field used in baseball, and that coaches/spectators could not understand the "changed" calls from a distance in unrelaxed action. I do not know if that is the correct reason, but it is just a different mechanic/ruling in baseball.

Roger Greene

p.s. The approved Fed mechanic on a missed plate is to hesitate a moment, and then signal safe if nothing else occurs. If an attempt to tag the plate, or put out the runner occures during that time, you waite for the play to conclude and then give your signal.


[Edited by Roger Greene on Oct 14th, 2002 at 02:48 PM]

[Dakota]

I understand from a similar discussion on eteamz that the NCAA mechanic is to signal nothing until either the runner touches the base or the fielder tags the runner, and then make the call according to safe or out. (I don't do NCAA so my information is from that thread - fair warning.)

Several of the people in that discussion preferred the NCAA mechanic, since they believed the ASA mechanic of a slight hesitation + safe signal gave the offense a false sense of security - and thereby tips the balance toward the defense.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by Dakota
I understand from a similar discussion on eteamz that the NCAA mechanic is to signal nothing until either the runner touches the base or the fielder tags the runner, and then make the call according to safe or out. (I don't do NCAA so my information is from that thread - fair warning.)

Several of the people in that discussion preferred the NCAA mechanic, since they believed the ASA mechanic of a slight hesitation + safe signal gave the offense a false sense of security - and thereby tips the balance toward the defense.

I would have to say that anyone who buys into that reason either doesn't understand or know the proper mechanic.

The hesitation is to see if either the catcher or runner react in a manner which indicates they are aware that something is amiss. If there is any reaction, the umpire remains silent and allows the play to continue. Of course, depending on the location of the runner, the moment the defender attempts to tag the runner and s/he steps in any direction other than toward the plate, I believe the umpire can rule a basepath violation if appropriate.



Therefore, if there is no reaction by either party, you make the safe call. This play is over and appropriate and properly executed appeals may be honored.

[SWFLguy]

I remember having to make such a call in an ASA league Slo-pitch
playoff game back north. I did it by the ASA mechanics "book" and
when the end result was the final out for the losing team, the
"manager/coach" went ballistic. He was an ex college level baseball player and could not understand that the ASA had such a mechanic.
Stuff like that ceratinly does cause softball umpires problems with the uninformed players and fans.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Quoted by:
SWFLguy


He was an ex college level baseball player and could not understand that the ASA had such a mechanic.
Stuff like that ceratinly does cause softball umpires problems with the uninformed players and fans.

I would love to meet a non-umpire who really EVER understood either BB or SB mechanics.............in your case I would bet "dollars to donuts" that your ex college lever BB player could not even site the section where the proper mechanic for baseball "might" be found..........

More often than not..........they are just griping about a call because.........it is "just not right"..........but have no other evidence................grin

JMHO

Joel

[greymule]

I brought up these plays because I was struck by the fact that, unlike in baseball, a fielder with the ball can touch a missed base and appeal to the umpire even if the runner is making an immediate attempt to return. In terms of the mechanic, I think ASA is right in requiring the umpire to make the "safe" sign, as not doing so would announce that the runner missed the plate. I have often added a verbal, "You missed him," which announces the reason for the safe call but does not indicate either way about the runner touching the plate.

Obviously a runner trying to score could slide and miss the plate. I just don't think a runner can slide into home plate and miss it. When I am president of ASA, I will have "into" changed to "at" in the case book.

Don't ever assume that because someone played at a certain level, he knows anything about the rules. I know guys who were in the pros—even the majors—and don't know things that we would consider basic. Their attitude is that you just play the game and the umpire calls the rare odd occurrence. They feel that they wouldn't have gained any advantage by studying the rules.

I guarantee that 95 percent of slow-pitch players know very little about the rules. They just go by what seems "right," and as people have noted, that causes problems for the umpires. Frankly, the fact that many slow-pitch umpires also don't know the rules is a contributing factor.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by greymule
I brought up these plays because I was struck by the fact that, unlike in baseball, a fielder with the ball can touch a missed base and appeal to the umpire even if the runner is making an immediate attempt to return.

I think you may have to define your idea of "immediate". The ASA mechanic allows for the hesitation to observe if there is an immediate reaction. If there is, play is allowed to continue with no call.

And remember, it isn't just touching a missed base, but it needs to be accompanied by a verbal or some other indication which demonstrates the player is indeed making an appeal.