Rules question
 

I had a situation come up yesterday that I could use some clarification on. Rec leagues using ASA rules. Maximum of 6 runs per inning allowed with the league rules. Situation: 5 runs already scored, 2 outs, bases loaded, full count on batter. Nest pitch is ball 4, also a pass ball to the backstop. Both teams treat it as a pass ball with runner on 3rd racing home. I announce "ball four'. Runner scores 6th run with the catcher just retieving the ball. The batter has backed up to clear the plate area. Coaches' from both teams announce "6 runs". I look at batter and again state "ball four". She looks at me, then to her coach who calls her to the dugout. She enters dugout as the defense is clearing the field, so she never did touch first base. My question: Is the batter out as soon as she enters the dugout, nullifyng the 6th run? Or do i wait for the defense to appeal her not touching the base?

I waited for the defense to appeal, which they never did.

Looks like an out, not an appeal.
Unless of course, there is also a league rule (anathema) which negates it.

Yep.

By rule, an out.

By practice, calling this out is only going to get you the OOO reputation. If this is tourney - call the out. However, often fall ball is educational ball, for players and coaches alike. Depending on the tenor of this league, you might, instead, tell the coach between innings that she has to go to first on a walk, or she's out.

If you wait to tell the coach between innings, then you already have the out and it is too late for her action to change that. :confused:

By what rule? The league rule for ending an inning with six runs is almost certainly underspecified (is there a league rule that isn't?). So, I think by rule we have an inning that ends when the 6th run scores with no apparent nullifying play available meaning the only appeals I will accept are for a runner that has scored. And I'll defy you to show me in the rule book where it says that's not how you're supposed to handle it. (I realize you can make up your own rule where it wouldn't count, but you don't want to call it that way so why not make up my rule as long as we're making up rules either way.)
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FetishStormX

You're kidding, right? The run does not score if the batter-runner is out before reaching first base. The BR was out the moment she entered the dugout, therefore the run doesn't score. I'm not making up a rule here. A rule that says you end at 6 runs doesn't mean you throw out all other rules. (Would you score the 6th run if a runner crossed the plate before BR was thrown out at 1st for the 3rd out? Of course not... this sitch is EXACTLY the same as far as enforcement goes).

Scott - what I meant was that if this was low-level or a learning league (as a lot of fall ball leagues are), INSTEAD of calling the out, you might be better off just telling the coach that she'd messed up. I'm not saying this applies all the time, or at all ages.

It is a learning league for the players and quite a few coaches (and apparently for me). After the inning I did tell the both coach's that the batter should have gone to first base, but, I told them I thought it might be an appeal situation. When I see them this week, I'll let them know it's an out when she enters the dugout, and the 6th run should have come off the board. Thanks for the replies.

No I'm not kidding. The league has a rule that says that the inning ends when the sixth run is scored. It doesn't say quite what that means. Consider this:

With no outs and the bases loaded, the BR hits a sac fly for the 6th run. Unfortunately, the runner at third leaves early. The runner scores and everyone runs off the field from the offense. The defense then appeals that the runner at third left early. Yes, he did and is out. Do you then call another runner out to end the inning?

You are making up rules here to deal with the league rule. I say make up good ones if you have to make up rules.
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KIDS PAXIL

For what? How in the world is this a similar situation. I can't imagine what you're trying to call a 3rd out for, but no, I would not - there's no reason to.

I am not making up any rules. The league has a rule that says the inning is over when the 6th run scores. The 6th run never scored. I've given you the rule that applies. Please tell me why you think that just because the league has a rule about how many runs can score in an inning, you need to throw out the rest of the existing rules. This makes no sense.

It's very simple. A BR who is awarded first base on a base-on-balls is out if she leaves the field of play without going to first. Right? And a run cannot score on a play where the 3rd out is made on a BR before she reaches first. Very simple, and no inventing of rules.

Sure there is, the runner who is supposed to be on second is in the dugout. What I'm guessing you'd do, though I'd like you to state for certain, is call time and return the runners to base after the appeal? Is that correct?
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LIVE SEX WEBSHOWS

Absolutely.

I knew what you MEANT to say, it was just the wording I was having fun with!

By what rule?
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Infants prilosec

Read your rule book carefully. It clearly states that "no run, (meaning zero, zilch, zip, nada), can score" when the third out of the inning is made by the batter-runner before reaching first base.

In this case, the batter-runner was out prior to reaching first base, because she opted to leave the field of play instead. So, how many runs can score? Zero.

Oh...and if you need a rule reference, check out NFHS 9.1.a. for this. I don't have my ASA, USSSA, or NCAA books with me at work. (Actually, I don't have my NFHS book here either, but I do have that handy dandy digital version available.)

You seem to have this one backward too...

You don't need a rule to not rule someone out. If you think this player should be out, there must be a rule that tells you this player is out for doing something. This player has not done anything to be called out for.

I understand what the book says. The problem here is that you have a league rule and it does change things. Whether it changes this or not is unspecified and I'm saying that as long as you have to make up the body of the rule, why not make it up in the most equitable fashion possible.
A solid argument might be made that we should be consistent with game ending procedures and I could respect that though I think it's less in line with how the game is actually played. The argument that the league rule can't change this rule but only other rules is somewhat lost on me though.

If the league didn't have a six run rule, you'd call him out right? 8-7-U?

To fork this thread a little since I'll be offline shortly:
To make this a little worse for your position, suppose that we have the bases loaded with no outs and the Batter gets ball 4. The runner from 3rd comes home and scores. Then the runners from 2nd and 1st (having legally advanced) run off the field (what with it being 6 runs and all). The the batter runner runs off the field. Run scores? If you have to make it up (and you do), make it up in the way it ought to be called.
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Toys live

No one is saying that a league rule cannot supercede this. However, the OP makes absolutely no mention of that. (Again, no means no. None.) Barring that piece of evidence, we have to go with the book rule. And this book rule is as I have already stated.

Now, if the OP said that they "have a six run per inning rule, and that the runners who are forced to advance do not have to do so if the sixth run will score as a result of an award, and that no fourth out appeal, nor any other action by a player, coach or umpire can nullify a run once it has scored," I might be willing to entertain your argument. However, the OP never stated anything remotely close to that, and I am sure that no PARD director in their right mind (I know some who aren't) would ever make such a league rule.

You are really reaching here to defend an argument that has little to no merit and subsequently muddying the waters for those officials, players and coaches who might be reading this forum in hope of getting some concise answers.

No... I believe the problem here (and I hate local rules as much as the next guy) is that you're trying to say that since there's a local rule that might apply, then there must be other ones, written or unwritten, that we can pretend apply. There's no need to add additional rules.

The league rule CAN change other rules. They can, should they choose, specify that a batter in THIS ONE case doesn't have to go to first. But they didn't ... so why are you choosing to add a rule that doesn't exist?

Just because an inning (or game, really!) APPEARS to be over does not mean it's over. I have a coach that consistently tells his players to complete the play (on either side of the ball) in situations where the run-limit is reached or in cases where it appears the game is over. Several thought he was either crazy, or just trying to get in extra practice...

Until the one day, where he needed 5 (the run rule in that league) to win the game. 4 runs in, tie game, R1 on 2nd, R1 on first. 1 out. Ball hit to right. R1 misses 3rd and scores. R1 also scores and BR stops at 2nd. The other coach appealed the miss at 3rd and got the 2nd out - but since his team kept playing, they won anyway. Had R1 not continued, we'd have had to keep playing that game. I've seen this team get "outs" on defense after the apparent inning-ending run had scored, and so far it hasn't mattered, but it COULD, in much the same manner as above.

Of course the run scores. BR is out for failing to run to first. 1 out. 6th run scores, inning over. By what rule do you call anyone else out? And even if you do, by what rule would either of them wipe the run off the board?

This really isn't that complicated.

The only league rule we have for this age group is the maximum runs allowed per inning (6). Everything else is ASA. The explanations by mbcrowder and shatboi make perfect sense. Thanks.

I know a lot of times the things I say may make me sound like I have, but did you really need to point it out to everyone??? :( ;)

For the record, folks, my handle on here is a phoenetic pronunciation of "Scotty Boy," a name that was bestowed upon me by my late grandfather as well as several others since. Skah + t = Scotty, and boi = Boy.

8-7-U. I don't see why you want to ignore that rule. You're missing the whole thrust of my counterexamples because you refuse to confront that rule. And I don't really blame you because the league meant to have their six run rule supersede it but you can't get there until you're willing to admit you have to make up rules.
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VAPIR ONE 5.0

8-7-U does not apply to the BR

No but it does apply to the runners who start out at 1st and 2nd. If they run off the field for the first and second out before the BR gets off the field then if you call the BR out, you're calling her out for the third out (made before she reached first).
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*** Webcams

Sigh... I already said the BR is out. She can't very well be out again, much less 3 times. I'm not ignoring 8-7-U at all.

So you are changing the play as offered in the OP? Nowhere was it stated that any runner entered the dugout without advancing other than the BR. That means the 8.7.U does not apply to the play offered.

Yes, he made up another play to try to illustrate his point. After re-reading, I'm thinking he's actually trying to invent a scenario where bases are loaded with no outs, R1 scores, BR dawdles a LONG time, so long that R2 and R3 advance to their bases and then head to and enter their dugouts AHEAD of BR.

This thread made me think...

Hypothetically...
Bases loaded, 2 outs.
DK3 AND passed ball.
BR is a new player and doesn't run to 1st until coaches and parents yell "RUN!":D
R1 is an experienced player and advances home.
R1 crosses the plate before F2 can retrieve the ball and get back to the plate.
HOWEVER, BR, after a slow start, hasn't reached 1st yet. F2 throws to F3, F3 touches 1st.

If I'm understanding the posts here, R1 run still doesn't count. Is that correct?

Not sure what you are thinking about to be honest ... of course it doesn't. Just like a ground ball where R1 crosses the plate before BR is out at first. No run... NO RUN can score on a play where the BR is put out before reaching 1st base for the third out.

Here's where my brain went (probably incorrectly, but I figure it doesn't hurt to ask)... is there a VALID argument to saying there are TWO plays here? Play 1: passed ball, runner scores. Play 2: DK3.

Yes, I'm probably stretching, but my mind doesn't seem to be working right.:p

Think of it this way. Until BR has touched first safely, there is no score. That should pretty much answer your question.

This "play" means from the moment the ball is pitched to the moment the next ball is ready to be pitched.

Yeah, definitely changing the OP to bring in 8-7-U. The one above is only one of the variants I had mentioned. There are lots of variations on the theme. In all of them, we fix the specification of the league rule in some way to make it right. I don't see why we can't do the same in the OP.
To be consistent you'd have to be willing to make this call or explain some way in which it's different.
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Avandia settlement

Consider this one: R1 on 3B and R2 on 1B with 1 out, BR grounds into a 6-4-3 double play. Two distinct 'plays' were made, but the run does NOT score even if R1 touches home before out #2 (i.e. during the first play).

I disagree; to be consistent, we apply the official rules unless we're explicitly told otherwise by the house rules. There may well be some cases where there is no clear-cut way to handle situations that were not clarified by the house rules, but those rare, convoluted situations should not be taken as the norm for applying official rules.

League rules supercede the rulebook - they do not invalidate it except where it must.

I will admit that in your scenario that I summarized, I would have no run. Crucify me if you want. Maybe it's partially because that just doesn't happen here. Coaches don't yell out "5 runs!" and then everyone leaves the field. Once the play is over, the UMPIRE tells everyone there have been 5 runs. If a coach told his players to leave the field before the play is over, and somehow R2 andR3 exited the field after reaching their bases but BEFORE BR, and BR ends up being the 3rd out - no run. By rule.

Unbelievable
 

I was always taught...and have always taught...that no run can score if the 3rd out of an inning is the result of a force out. Did something change?

This is what I was having the brain fart moment on. :p

Where ???? :eek:

Nah, no crucifixion from me. It's consistent which is all that can be asked for.
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WEB SHOWS

At the plate ... where else? :)