Your chance to wipe out a bad mechanic

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I agree with Mike. Can you be more specific as to what kind of play you think the Rim gives you more of the field in front of you than I/O?

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

And when the throw is off target and goes to the outfield? How do you cover 3B?

In your sitch, I'm inside, but I'm off of the "center line" that goes from HP to 2B. On a runner coming from 1B, I'm more towards the 2B/3B baseline. On a runner that's already touched 2B, I'm more towards the 1B/2B baseline. I'm inside, but I'm out of the way.

I'm not saying that rimming's the end all, be all. Nor am I saying that the inside/outside theory is bad. Each has their merits, each has their flaws. I would just like the ability to pick my poison.

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

And when the throw is off target and goes to the outfield? How do you cover 3B?

I would move inside and head to 3rd.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In your sitch, I'm inside, but I'm off of the "center line" that goes from HP to 2B. On a runner coming from 1B, I'm more towards the 2B/3B baseline. On a runner that's already touched 2B, I'm more towards the 1B/2B baseline. I'm inside, but I'm out of the way.

Being out of the way is fine, but you will not have as much in front of you, nor be able to see the play develop. Plus you will not be in as good of a position to see the play at second because you are "out of the way".

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I'm not saying that rimming's the end all, be all. Nor am I saying that the inside/outside theory is bad. Each has their merits, each has their flaws. I would just like the ability to pick my poison.

I agree. ASA does not. I think that was Wade's point.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

Being out of the way is fine, but you will not have as much in front of you, nor be able to see the play develop. Plus you will not be in as good of a position to see the play at second because you are "out of the way".

What? That is the perfect spot to be in. From behind there's a lot of opportunities to be blocked from either the tag or the foot hitting the bag (or obstruction for that matter by the SS's feet).

I will admit that in my area I do rim on one and only one play - and only because I've asked my UIC and have approval (others do this here too). When R1 from first is heading to 2nd on a WP or PB - and there's no chance of a play at 2nd, but a decent chance of a play at 3rd. I'd rather stay ahead of the runner than wait and cross in.

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

What? That is the perfect spot to be in. From behind there's a lot of opportunities to be blocked from either the tag or the foot hitting the bag (or obstruction for that matter by the SS's feet).

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I will admit that in my area I do rim on one and only one play - and only because I've asked my UIC and have approval (others do this here too). When R1 from first is heading to 2nd on a WP or PB - and there's no chance of a play at 2nd, but a decent chance of a play at 3rd. I'd rather stay ahead of the runner than wait and cross in.

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

I thought the discussion was about which was better. I prefer, on this play, getting a better angle on the relevant play rather than keeping everything in front of me at the risk of being blocked (and behind the play should it develop toward third).

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

We are all aware that this is normally PU's responsibility. However, if this is discussed at pregame it's not an issue - and it saves PU a few steps - probably a little more important down in 100 degree 100% humidity land than elsewhere.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

I would move inside and head to 3rd.

Yes, but now you've got some catching up to do because you're trailing the runner, which is the absolute worst place to be when making a call.

Originally Posted by topper

Being out of the way is fine, but you will not have as much in front of you, nor be able to see the play develop. Plus you will not be in as good of a position to see the play at second because you are "out of the way".

Actually, I don't have a problem seeing it develop. If the ball is at the plate, I know I need to be off to one side or another on a baseline. If the runner has already touched 2B, I should be closer to baseline between 1B and 2B, ready to cover 3B if necessary. If the runner is coming from 1B into 2B, I should be closer to the baseline between 2B and 3B.

In both of those cases, I have an easy time of getting a good 90º to the tag, and I don't have nearly as much distance to cover if the runner should I need to cover 3B.

Originally Posted by topper

I agree. ASA does not. I think that was Wade's point.

I understand both sides to the coin: ASA needs to get almost 50k umpires (according to their website) up-to-speed with good techniques, but there are other advanced ways of covering plays.

The problem comes when you have an advanced umpire with an inexperienced one. Whose mechanics should dictate the other's behavior?

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yes, but now you've got some catching up to do because you're trailing the runner, which is the absolute worst place to be when making a call.

I'm not sure how far behind I'd be, unless they neither slide nor slow up into the bag. That slight risk is by far out weighed by having more of the entire sequence in front of me. Besides, PU doesn't have anything left to do.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The problem comes when you have an advanced umpire with an inexperienced one. Whose mechanics should dictate the other's behavior?

When working ASA it's a moot point.

When not, I would think the more advanced official would suggest doing some things differently and explaining why. That's what we do at every camp I've been a part of.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

I'm not sure how far behind I'd be, unless they neither slide nor slow up into the bag. That slight risk is by far out weighed by having more of the entire sequence in front of me. Besides, PU doesn't have anything left to do.

Assuming there are no other runners, taking the last runner to 3B should always be the BU's responsibility. PU should be preparing for a play at the plate. Priorities.

Originally Posted by topper

When working ASA it's a moot point.

But we're not talking about keeping what this association or that association wants. We're talking about what WE want as officials. So no, it's not a moot point.

Originally Posted by topper

When not, I would think the more advanced official would suggest doing some things differently and explaining why. That's what we do at every camp I've been a part of.

That can be dangerous if done with a truly inexperienced umpire. You'd have to pre-game it extensively and in an environment where you can afford to make those adjustments. Doing this in the finals would be bad timing.

Not to mention the fact that first and foremost, our main concern as veteran umpires tasked with bringing up the rookies is to give them the building blocks from which to grow. By starting off doing something different from the prescribed mechanics, you're not doing them any favors as a mentor.

Originally Posted by topper

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

Yes, and we should be ready for subsequent plays. Never compromise getting a good look at a play if it means getting behind the runner at your next play. It may work for 9 out of 10 plays, but it's that 10th play that'll bite you in the @$$.

Originally Posted by topper

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Yes, the PU and BU are a team. And it's a team that works in priorities. As far as I'm concerned, the priorities on the bases start with home plate and work their way backwards. This is why the BU takes the trailing plays at 3rd, as well as the last runner or batter-runner. A blown call at 2nd or 3rd doesn't sting quite so badly as a blown call at home plate.

Originally Posted by topper

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

Won't even touch this one with a 10 foot pole, especially considering there are involved parties present on this board.

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Assuming there are no other runners, taking the last runner to 3B should always be the BU's responsibility. PU should be preparing for a play at the plate. Priorities.

The play at the plate is over, hence the throw back to 2nd.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

But we're not talking about keeping what this association or that association wants. We're talking about what WE want as officials. So no, it's not a moot point.

ASA isn't concerned about what WE want as umpires. That's why it's moot.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

That can be dangerous if done with a truly inexperienced umpire. You'd have to pre-game it extensively and in an environment where you can afford to make those adjustments. Doing this in the finals would be bad timing.

Not to mention the fact that first and foremost, our main concern as veteran umpires tasked with bringing up the rookies is to give them the building blocks from which to grow. By starting off doing something different from the prescribed mechanics, you're not doing them any favors as a mentor.

You said we are not keeping what "this association or that association wants", so what prescription are we going by? Why teach a new umpire mechanics only to try to un-teach those mechanics later?

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yes, and we should be ready for subsequent plays. Never compromise getting a good look at a play if it means getting behind the runner at your next play. It may work for 9 out of 10 plays, but it's that 10th play that'll bite you in the @$$.

So the next "possible" play is more important that the one right in front of us. Interesting!

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yes, the PU and BU are a team. And it's a team that works in priorities. As far as I'm concerned, the priorities on the bases start with home plate and work their way backwards. This is why the BU takes the trailing plays at 3rd, as well as the last runner or batter-runner. A blown call at 2nd or 3rd doesn't sting quite so badly as a blown call at home plate.

I'm sorry, but I'm not sure what this means.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Won't even touch this one with a 10 foot pole, especially considering there are involved parties present on this board.

To say that I am sorry if I offended anyone would be disingenuous. And no, I am not an "involved party".

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

Inside toward shortstop ... wouldn't you? PERFECT spot to see the tag, the foot, and the bag all at once.

I know you were using this example as a vote for outside... but do you REALLY think that's a better view on this play?

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

Inside toward shortstop ... wouldn't you? PERFECT spot to see the tag, the foot, and the bag all at once.

I know you were using this example as a vote for outside... but do you REALLY think that's a better view on this play?

I thought the issue was what keeps more of the field/play in front of you. I don't see how jerking your head back and forth from home to second as the play at second develops then trying to move back "in the way" to see it is more advantageous than taking the runner from 1st to second from the outside.

And yes, I REALLY do think it's a better view of the play.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

I thought the issue was what keeps more of the field/play in front of you. I don't see how jerking your head back and forth from home to second as the play at second develops then trying to move back "in the way" to see it is more advantageous than taking the runner from 1st to second from the outside.

And yes, I REALLY do think it's a better view of the play.

1B to 2B, yes, that's fine. However, you're still behind the runner if they should attempt to advance to 3B on an errant throw.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by topper

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

Inside so I'm not making a call from behind the play. I don't know about you, but I don't have a problem staying out of possible throwing lanes and still be set up to see a throw, tag and play; And in position to easily take the runner to 3rd should there be a misplay at 2B.

[topper]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Inside so I'm not making a call from behind the play. I don't know about you, but I don't have a problem staying out of possible throwing lanes and still be set up to see a throw, tag and play; And in position to easily take the runner to 3rd should there be a misplay at 2B.

How is the back side 90 behind the play? Where do you make a call from on a steal of 2nd?

I don't know about you IRISH, but from the C slot with a runner on 2nd, on a base hit, I'm busting it over to pick up the BR as he/she rounds 1st. So, are you saying that you can be inside, following the runner to 2nd, seeing the play at home and the throw back to 2nd, moving to the SS side of 2nd to get the best view of the play while staying out of the throwing lane? Please.

Of course, the only way I could see all of this take place from the field is by being outside to begin with. I thought the we were talking about which position was more advantageous to keeping things in front of us. Right?