Your chance to wipe out a bad mechanic

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

Are you saying that keeping more of the field/play in front of you is not advantageous?

I agree with Mike. Can you be more specific as to what kind of play you think the Rim gives you more of the field in front of you than I/O?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I agree with Mike. Can you be more specific as to what kind of play you think the Rim gives you more of the field in front of you than I/O?

I just gave one...

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I just gave one...

You did, he didn't... and I'm still trying to find out what F4 is doing in Left Field and why I can't see it from I/O... but that's another question. Isn't our job the runner on this play - PU has the catch - and a good PU knows you need his verbal for timing's sake. I'm not convinced outside is a very good spot to see both anyway - you still need PU's help on that.

(OTOH - how often does R1 on first tag on a play to "shallow left" anyway? Shouldn't he be halfway?)

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

You did, he didn't... and I'm still trying to find out what F4 is doing in Left Field and why I can't see it from I/O... but that's another question. Isn't our job the runner on this play - PU has the catch - and a good PU knows you need his verbal for timing's sake. I'm not convinced outside is a very good spot to see both anyway - you still need PU's help on that.

(OTOH - how often does R1 on first tag on a play to "shallow left" anyway? Shouldn't he be halfway?)

F4 isn't in left field, F4's playing their usual spot: practically (often literally) in the grass. If I'm in B, I have to cover about 40 feet to get inside, buttonhook, then hope to hell I've got enough time to find where the ball's going. Once I see the fielder first touch the ball, I now have to turn >180º in order to pick up R1.

Staying back closer to B, you still have a wide angle between the ball and R1, but you don't have one or the other completely out of your field of vision like you do when you buttonhook. R1 is at least in your peripheral vision, and you get a better feel for the timing.

98% of the time, the throw is coming to 2B, and the play ends there. If the throw is that far off target, you can still come inside to pick up the play at 3B should that arise.

And "shallow" left field would be a 200 foot hit. That's shallow for SP. I get plenty of runners tagging up and going on the first touch, especially if it looks like the fielder might have to dive or make the catch in an off balance manner.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

... Isn't our job the runner on this play - PU has the catch - and a good PU knows you need his verbal for timing's sake. I'm not convinced outside is a very good spot to see both anyway - you still need PU's help on that.

What does PU's verbal of a catch have to do with a tag up sitch? The fielder may have made contact with a fly ball that has not yet touched the ground which triggers the timing on the tag up; if the ball is then caught before touching the ground, then the verbal from PU is meaningless, except to rule BR Out.

As BU, isn't it my responsibility to see both the play and the runner to know whether the runner left early or not?

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I agree with Mike. Can you be more specific as to what kind of play you think the Rim gives you more of the field in front of you than I/O?

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

And when the throw is off target and goes to the outfield? How do you cover 3B?

In your sitch, I'm inside, but I'm off of the "center line" that goes from HP to 2B. On a runner coming from 1B, I'm more towards the 2B/3B baseline. On a runner that's already touched 2B, I'm more towards the 1B/2B baseline. I'm inside, but I'm out of the way.

I'm not saying that rimming's the end all, be all. Nor am I saying that the inside/outside theory is bad. Each has their merits, each has their flaws. I would just like the ability to pick my poison.

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

And when the throw is off target and goes to the outfield? How do you cover 3B?

I would move inside and head to 3rd.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In your sitch, I'm inside, but I'm off of the "center line" that goes from HP to 2B. On a runner coming from 1B, I'm more towards the 2B/3B baseline. On a runner that's already touched 2B, I'm more towards the 1B/2B baseline. I'm inside, but I'm out of the way.

Being out of the way is fine, but you will not have as much in front of you, nor be able to see the play develop. Plus you will not be in as good of a position to see the play at second because you are "out of the way".

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

I'm not saying that rimming's the end all, be all. Nor am I saying that the inside/outside theory is bad. Each has their merits, each has their flaws. I would just like the ability to pick my poison.

I agree. ASA does not. I think that was Wade's point.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

Being out of the way is fine, but you will not have as much in front of you, nor be able to see the play develop. Plus you will not be in as good of a position to see the play at second because you are "out of the way".

What? That is the perfect spot to be in. From behind there's a lot of opportunities to be blocked from either the tag or the foot hitting the bag (or obstruction for that matter by the SS's feet).

I will admit that in my area I do rim on one and only one play - and only because I've asked my UIC and have approval (others do this here too). When R1 from first is heading to 2nd on a WP or PB - and there's no chance of a play at 2nd, but a decent chance of a play at 3rd. I'd rather stay ahead of the runner than wait and cross in.

[topper]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

What? That is the perfect spot to be in. From behind there's a lot of opportunities to be blocked from either the tag or the foot hitting the bag (or obstruction for that matter by the SS's feet).

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I will admit that in my area I do rim on one and only one play - and only because I've asked my UIC and have approval (others do this here too). When R1 from first is heading to 2nd on a WP or PB - and there's no chance of a play at 2nd, but a decent chance of a play at 3rd. I'd rather stay ahead of the runner than wait and cross in.

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

I thought the discussion was about which was better. I prefer, on this play, getting a better angle on the relevant play rather than keeping everything in front of me at the risk of being blocked (and behind the play should it develop toward third).

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

Wow, that was uncalled for.

We are all aware that this is normally PU's responsibility. However, if this is discussed at pregame it's not an issue - and it saves PU a few steps - probably a little more important down in 100 degree 100% humidity land than elsewhere.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

I would move inside and head to 3rd.

Yes, but now you've got some catching up to do because you're trailing the runner, which is the absolute worst place to be when making a call.

Originally Posted by topper

Being out of the way is fine, but you will not have as much in front of you, nor be able to see the play develop. Plus you will not be in as good of a position to see the play at second because you are "out of the way".

Actually, I don't have a problem seeing it develop. If the ball is at the plate, I know I need to be off to one side or another on a baseline. If the runner has already touched 2B, I should be closer to baseline between 1B and 2B, ready to cover 3B if necessary. If the runner is coming from 1B into 2B, I should be closer to the baseline between 2B and 3B.

In both of those cases, I have an easy time of getting a good 90º to the tag, and I don't have nearly as much distance to cover if the runner should I need to cover 3B.

Originally Posted by topper

I agree. ASA does not. I think that was Wade's point.

I understand both sides to the coin: ASA needs to get almost 50k umpires (according to their website) up-to-speed with good techniques, but there are other advanced ways of covering plays.

The problem comes when you have an advanced umpire with an inexperienced one. Whose mechanics should dictate the other's behavior?

[topper]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Yes, but now you've got some catching up to do because you're trailing the runner, which is the absolute worst place to be when making a call.

I'm not sure how far behind I'd be, unless they neither slide nor slow up into the bag. That slight risk is by far out weighed by having more of the entire sequence in front of me. Besides, PU doesn't have anything left to do.

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The problem comes when you have an advanced umpire with an inexperienced one. Whose mechanics should dictate the other's behavior?

When working ASA it's a moot point.

When not, I would think the more advanced official would suggest doing some things differently and explaining why. That's what we do at every camp I've been a part of.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by topper

I'm not sure how far behind I'd be, unless they neither slide nor slow up into the bag. That slight risk is by far out weighed by having more of the entire sequence in front of me. Besides, PU doesn't have anything left to do.

Assuming there are no other runners, taking the last runner to 3B should always be the BU's responsibility. PU should be preparing for a play at the plate. Priorities.

Originally Posted by topper

When working ASA it's a moot point.

But we're not talking about keeping what this association or that association wants. We're talking about what WE want as officials. So no, it's not a moot point.

Originally Posted by topper

When not, I would think the more advanced official would suggest doing some things differently and explaining why. That's what we do at every camp I've been a part of.

That can be dangerous if done with a truly inexperienced umpire. You'd have to pre-game it extensively and in an environment where you can afford to make those adjustments. Doing this in the finals would be bad timing.

Not to mention the fact that first and foremost, our main concern as veteran umpires tasked with bringing up the rookies is to give them the building blocks from which to grow. By starting off doing something different from the prescribed mechanics, you're not doing them any favors as a mentor.

Originally Posted by topper

You're still talking only about seeing the play at second. The discussion is about keeping everything in front of you.

Yes, and we should be ready for subsequent plays. Never compromise getting a good look at a play if it means getting behind the runner at your next play. It may work for 9 out of 10 plays, but it's that 10th play that'll bite you in the @$$.

Originally Posted by topper

I quess your UIC doesn't mind if the PU just hangs out at home. Maybe someone should explain to him/her, and you for that matter, that the subsequent play at 3rd should be covered by the PU.

Yes, the PU and BU are a team. And it's a team that works in priorities. As far as I'm concerned, the priorities on the bases start with home plate and work their way backwards. This is why the BU takes the trailing plays at 3rd, as well as the last runner or batter-runner. A blown call at 2nd or 3rd doesn't sting quite so badly as a blown call at home plate.

Originally Posted by topper

Unfortunately, since I do live in the Houston area, this wouldn't surprise me of some of the UICs/assignors I know.

Won't even touch this one with a 10 foot pole, especially considering there are involved parties present on this board.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by topper

Single runner at 2nd, base hit to OF, play at plate. Where would you rather be for the catcher's throw to back to 2nd?

There are others, but you only asked for 1.

Inside toward shortstop ... wouldn't you? PERFECT spot to see the tag, the foot, and the bag all at once.

I know you were using this example as a vote for outside... but do you REALLY think that's a better view on this play?