Live ball appeal
 

R1 on third, no outs, ball hit to and caught by F7, R1 tags and runs home, F7 makes a good throw and F2 a good catch. With the ball in her glove F2 step onto the plate, totally and completely blocking all access to the plate, R1 runs past and completely misses the plate; F2 does not attempt to tag R1. I make a safe call. While still standing on the plate F2 appeals runner missing the plate, R1 now slides into the plate from the First base side, again no tag is attempted. I step up and rule the runner out for missing the plate and the defense properly appealing, I actually give a good explanation for all to hear. “The Runner did not touch home plate, before the runner returned to touch the plate, the catcher in possession of the ball, made a proper live ball appeal – the Runner is ruled out.” Of course, one team is happy, one team is not – the game (and life) continue.

Curiousity - given your description - did you have obstruction?

Doesn't sound like an obstruction issue. What I'm getting from the description is that F2 first had the ball, then moved to the plate to block access.

One question: If there was no tag attempt, why did you give a safe signal?

We should hesitate on the safe call in this situation, although I am guilty of not hesitating long enough on calls. Making the safe call too early makes it harder for us to sell the out, if a proper appeal is made. I believe that ultimately getting it right is the right thing to do, even if we have to eat a little crow for it. Sounds like you made a right call to me.

I disagree on the "sell" part. I do agree some should hesitate longer, but it is actually the players who determine, or should determine, how long it should be.

If both are still active in the play, no call should be made. However, when neither take action to continue with an attempt to touch the plate or tag the runner, the call should be made.

However, there is no need to sell anything. Either the appeal is proper and timely or it is not.

Does ASA (or other rule sets) specifically address missing home plate? (as opposed to missing another base?)

NSA does, and as I read it, the play in this post would result in runner SAFE, no appeal available since runner was attempting to reach the plate.

Rule 8, Section 8 The baserunner is out: j. In running or sliding for home plate, he / she fails to touch home plate and makes no attempt to return to the base, when a fielder holds the ball in his / her hands while touching home plate and appeals to the umpire for a decision.
(the bold added by me)

I read this to imply that if the runner is trying to get to the plate, a tag must be made. We have all seen (even in a MLB baseball game) plays where the runner coming home misses the plate. The catcher will always reach to make a tag. If an appeal were available, F2 would simple holler "appeal missed plate" and would get the out.

Thoughts?

Why would you even consider that?

7.10(d) the runner fails to touch home base and makes no attempt to return to that base, and home base is tagged; NOTE: A runner forfeits his/her opportunity to return to home base when he/she enters the dugout or any other dead ball area on their way to the bench or dugout.

The way I read the OP, the runner should be safe as they were attempting to return and therefore must be tagged.

'Cuz after a few cold cans, I did not read it clearly.

Agree that it is the proper procedure when the runner misses the plate and the fielder misses the tag. In that case, our safe signal is a ruling on the tag attempt.

Bugg clearly states that there was no tag attempt made by the catcher. Thus, there is nothing to signal.

Interesting point and question about how NSA might handle this play. You guys that work baseball would be familiar with that. There, if the runner is actively scrambling back to touch the plate (or, first base after overrunning it, for that matter) an actual tag is required. You can't get the out just by stepping on the plate with the ball unless the runner is making no attempt to come back and touch.

"Does ASA (or other rule sets) specifically address missing home plate?"

ASA gives a case play in which F2, touching home plate, appeals immediately after a runner misses home. The ruling is that the runner is out. ASA allows immediate appeals at all bases and has no "vicinity of the base" or "attempting to return" stipulations.

However, that case play is actually presented to make a different point, which I can't remember offhand. Something to do with a successful appeal of home having some effect on other runners. Still, the example of the successful appeal is helpful.

The fact that NSA specifies and makes no attempt to return leads me to believe that they would call it as in OBR: if the runner is in the vicinity and scrambling back to the plate, it's too soon for an appeal, and F2 would have to tag the runner.

This CAN NOT be obstruction. OP made the right call.

I said sell, but meant to change the call once a safe signal is given.

I'll accept that reason. :P :)

NFHS. Rule 2.1,Art. 9. "If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses the tag, the umpire should hesitate slightly. If no tag is made, the umpire should declare the runner safe. If an appeal play is then made by tagging either the runner or home plate, the umpire should then make a decision on this appeal play."
In OBR rules, you make no calls. This is an appeal play. If the runner is heading towards his dugout area, the catcher is not required to chase him for the tag. We grant the appeal if the catcher steps on the plate and asks for appeal.

Welcome to the SOFTBALL forum. Let me put this as gently as possible; no one here cares even one momentary point of interest about OBR rules. Feel free to discuss ANY version of SOFTBALL rules, please spare us references to other sports, like football, basketball, volleyball, swimming, diving, or baseball.

Hmmm
 

And what if there are other runners on base? F2 is out chasing down a runner who missed a base. Why prevent the defense from getting other outs? I can't see how you wouldn't honor the appeal here.

Steve, I believe if you read my post again you will see I cited NFHS Softball Rules. Unless something changed dramatically, this is High School softball Rule. In Fed. runner out on appeal,simple as that.

Yes, but you followed up with OBR which has no bearing on softball (except maybe LL and even there there are modifications).

We can appreciate your knowledge, but mixing not only rule sets, but games (and baseball and softball are NOT the same game) can easily confuse the issue and thread.

Sorry you boys only do 1 league but most umpires do several. Distinguishing the differences helps clarify not confuse umps. Staying with 1 book limits you,by your choice. Others call lots of different leagues. Clarifacation will only help you understand differences.

Do you consider baseball and softball different leagues?

Try "different sports"!

Distinguishing differences between ASA/NFHS/NCAA, etc. may clarify things for softball umpires who work multiple softball rulesets. Applying OBR to softball plays does confuse things.

Or, you could try talking about softball rulings in the baseball forum and see how nice they treat you there...

Seth, we do talk about all rule books in both sports because a lot of people do both sports. Our association and state gives us handouts telling the different rules between OBR NFHS NCAA ASA. This is for the majority of people who do more than 1 league.
They appreciate knowing the differences, seeing how they have to make different calls for different leagues.
The only one's I can see this confusing is umpires who only do softball.
The majority of umps work all year in multiple leagues and are not limited to softball. We prefer to be versed in any league we call.

I don't agree. I routinely find softball and baseball umpires who innocently confuse the rules and, unfortunately impose the wrong rule in the wrong game. I don't know how many times I've heard a baseball umpire working a softball game tell me, "that's how we do it in baseball".

Once talking with Mary S. from NFHS and she referred to my state's Fed interpreter as the "cute little man who always asks why we just can't use baseball rules for softball". Sad part is that this baseball guys idea of a softball rules clinic was to read that year's rules changes from the documents provided by NFHS. He "ran" an association that trained the softball umpires in baseball rules and mechanics. Offered to help his association by opening the ASA state umpire school to his umpires. He refused to pass this on to his group. No idea why.

Absolutely, positively agree. But I don't agree with mingling. I often have prospects tell me that they are going to do everything, baseball, softball, FP, SP, high school, league, travel ball tournaments, etc. My only response is to advise them to concentrate on a single discipline/game until confident and then expand their skills.

I call ASA/USFA FP all year long, here in Houston, with very little breaks in between. I like to specialize in FP Softball and choose not to call any other sport. I agree with IRISH that Umpires confuse baseball and softball rules when they do both. I have worked with a couple baseball/softball Umpires and have seen them confuse baseball rules with softball rules and mechanics on the field.

CUTE ???? :confused: :p

I agree umpires who do both sometimes mix rule books. If these umpires were more informed of the differences in the 2 they will eventually get better at distinguishing the differences. Many,many times its the coaches who mix rules up and an uninformed umpire has no knowledge to explain to these coaches where they are going wrong. This doesn't help the coaches, players, or umpires advance their knowledge of whatever rules they're calling. When these coaches argue that they saw the same play on TV or another game an umpires credibility will be greatly enhanced by being able to explain the differences. How many times during an argument or after do softball umps have to listen to coaches, fans and players say things like, that's why he's a softball umpire. I usually eliminate any doubt in their minds by being able to tell them the differences immediately. If your best answer is I don't know about other rules you not only lose credibility but you do the game an injustice. If we're not here to help advancement of all involved, what is our purpose? A paycheck? What will stop the confusion? Information you should be able to explain so coaches can instruct their players. Whether we like it or not, both sports overlap in arguments with coaches. Saying I don't know or that's the coaches problem will do nothing to alleviate this problem. If you want everyone on the same page as far as your sports rules go, umpires need to explain it so everyone understands. Or wait for someone to sprinkle magic dust that will make coaches read the book. Coaches don't read books usually and if an umpire can't explain it he only adds to the confusion.

How a softball rule differs from a baseball rule is of no concern to me and has had no bearing on any game I have called. Being able or willing to explain the differences during a game doesn't enhance credibility.

Huh? In my personal experience...never.

Other rules don't even enter into my explanation of a call. I tell them what the rule is for the ruleset we are using. I can assure you, "I don't know what the rule is in [other ruleset]" has never been my answer to a coach.

Her word, not mine

So, why would you expect these idiots to be any smarter after the player than before?

BuII$hit! I, nor any decent umpire, need not give a clinic after a call unless it is to the UIC explaining my call so s/he may rule on the protest I encouraged the team to request.

To officiate a sports contest and insure a level playing field for both teams.

Seems to me the only problem and confusion is of your own making to attempt to justify your arguments.

Done with this garbage.

please refrain from answering any post from said M guy.