Double first base question
 

This play is mostly for ASA (since it involves the DFB and language in Rule supplement #1):

No out, no runners on. B1 hit a ground ball to F6, and arrives at 1B before the (errant) throw (note: the errant throw is in the dirt, so this will constitute a "play at first"). B1 touches only the white portion of the base. The ball subsequently goes out of play, to which the umpire declares "dead ball" and places B1 on 2B. B1, who legally over ran 1B, proceeds directly to second base.

Question: if the defense appeals that the batter missed first base (by not being in compliance with the rules pertaining to the DFB) should we grant this appeal and declare the batter out?

I would really like to say that we can (after all, the runner has not complied with their base running obligations). However, in Rule Supplement #1 (Appeals), section about missing a base, language pertaining to DFB states "the appeal must be made before the runner returns to the base and the ball is live."

What do you think?

Did the errant throw pull the defensive player into foul territory?

If so, then they can appeal, but the correct call is safe (ASA 8-2-M-5).

There's also 8-2-M-6, but I'm not sure how well it applies to your situation:
Was the thrown ball on target, or did it sail over F3's head?

For this particular play, the ball is "on target" (well, it the dirt, F3 just doesn't make the catch). I included this detail to eliminate all potential facets of the rule. Just your "run of the mill" play at first, B1 touches the white, followed by a dead ball.

Did the BR cross 1B a lifetime before the ball ever got there? Or was it decently close enough (within a second or two)?

Now, Dave, don't make me go all "Irish" on you. :D

The play: A. There is a play at first base, B. Runner only touched white bag, C. Ball went out of play before B1 returned to first, D. B1 is now standing on 2B.

The question: Can the defense appeal that B1 "missed 1B" per DFB rules OR does the language in RS#1 prohibit a dead ball appeal on this play?

Seems to me you have an out. The language there does not exclude the OP at all. Runner never returned to first at all. This is clearly a missed base.

I interpret this to mean that when the ball is live, the appeal must be made before the runner returns to the base.

And, of course, if the ball is dead, we allow the runner to complete running responsibilities. So, if the runner returns during the dead ball (and prior to touching the first awarded base), then there can be no appeal.

BUT, your play has a dead ball (so the quoted phrase does not apply) and the runner does not return; so the appeal can be allowed as a dead ball appeal, after the runner stops (indicating no further running intended).

I agree with Steve. As long as there was no reason that the runner could have used the white bag (F3 being pulled into foul territory, and the runner trying to avoid contact), I would honor the appeal if the runner did not retouch first. I'm going to get hell for it, but I will honor it.

Steve (and Mike),
I, like you too, would be very inclined to honor the dead ball appeal and declare the runner out. However (and the reason I wrote the play), is that the DFB has it own set of rules about missing a base (well,there were special rules for missing first base well before the other 15"X15" came into existence). Missing first base, or the equivalent of touching the incorrect color, is special in and of itself. A runner and legally over run 1B and not be in jeopardy, as they would be in jeopardy if they overrun 2B or 3B.

I'm paraphrasing the RS#1 which, by rule, makes it seem that you can only make this appeal under two conditions: 1) before the runner returns AND 2) the ball must be live. Taken literally, these conditions exclude a dead ball appeal. I understand that the rules and RS's are not prime examples of precise legal writing, but let's change that line in RS#1 to this:

"If the appeal for missing first base is a live ball appeal, it must be made before the runner returns to first base."

How would you defend honoring the appeal when the OC shows you this phrase?

Key word for me is "If" - suggesting that there is that other alternative, the dead ball appeal. I don't think anywhere it is stated the appeal must be made live.

Adding another subtley(?) - if a runner passes (or over-runs) a base they are assumed to have touched the base unless correctly appealed. At 1B having passed the base a BR can return now to the white portion of the base. Developing the sitch they could run through the white portion, and if they then return to the white portion before an appeal are IMO safe despite never having touched the safety side.

This is the exact phrasing (which is even worst that my paraphrasing):

"When an appeal is made in both situations (missing first base/touching incorrect color) it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

Again, this, literally, excludes any dead ball appeals.

Then again, rule 8-2-M-3 makes no mention of live ball/dead ball, only that the appeal is made "prior to the BR returning to first base." I just like the potential conflict if questioned (yes, I know, Rule supplements are not rules).

Yes, that is the caveat for making the appeal before the runner returns, for it would be difficult to call a runner out for missing a base while they are standing on it (either color).

You replied before my correction, RS#1 provide the appeal to be made "while the ball is live." Any situation that would provoke the umpire to call "dead ball" before the runner got back to the bag? Well, maybe a SP umpire calling time too quickly (should call time when the pitcher has the ball and all activity has stopped). Maybe someone has been injured. Both of these will most likely result in the BR returning to first. However, a ball going out of play might not, and with that very specific statement about missing first base in very much black and white, there is potential conflict.

Unintended consequences of sloppy writing.

What they wrote: What they meant:

Playing out all possibilities (all plays assume a play at first with errant throw, and either wrong base or missed any base):

1) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during live play. Defense then appeals; too late, has been remedied before appeal.
2) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during live play. Defense appeals before return; runner is out, missed base.
3) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during dead ball. Defense then appeals; too late, has been remedied before appeal.
4) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, returns during dead ball. Defense appeals before return; appeal cannot be heard until runners complete running responsibilities. Then, same as #3.
5) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, continues to 2nd during live play without retouching. Defense appeals either dead ball OR live ball; runner is out, missed base.
6) BR steps on wrong base, overruns, continues to 2nd during dead ball without retouching. Defense appeals either dead ball OR live ball; runner is out, missed base.

The wording in RS#1 is to clarify the differences between #1, 2, and 3. That sentence does not apply to #5 or 6.

But, suppose the BR doesn't overrun at all, but just continues to stand on the wrong base? :D

Then when awarded second base he will have to leave first, return to first and then advance to second. :p
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No, it doesn't.

OK, I've finally figured out where you're misreading this. Read the rule again first. This is the rule. Now, read the RS again, parsing the sentence differently than it seems like you are parsing it.

"it must be made prior to the runner returning to first base while the ball is live."

You are reading this to mean it must be made prior to the runner returning; and separately that it must be made while the ball is live. I can see now how you got there, but this is NOT in line with the rule.

Read it again like this. It must be made prior to {the runner returning to first base while the ball is live}. IOW - if the runner returns to first base while the ball is live, the appeal must be made before that happens. If the runner never returns to first base while the ball is live, then it can happen anytime. THIS way of reading it IS in line with the rule.

You said it yourself --- These are not rules, they are explanations or clarifications. You should assume that if your reading of a clarification contradicts the actual rule, that you're reading it differently than they intended.

That's a pretty good stretch but it won't work. If the runner never returns to first while the ball is live but returns to first while the ball is dead it is also to late. The phrase while the ball is live ceases to mean anything in that context.
The supplement is just wrong. The appeal does not have to be made while the ball is live and the phrase should be struck.
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Rule vs. RS
 

The quoted rule (8-2M-3) has one stipulation about an appeal on this particular play: Prior to the BR returning to first . There is no mention about the status of the ball, be it still live or dead (more specifically, both a live ball and dead ball appeal is permissible). If the BR advanced to 2B by award, it is still "prior" to the BR returning to first. Ok, all well and good, everyone of us has an out on the OP.

So why does this need a supplement? What is so difficult to understand about this rule, or what makes this rule any different (as in missing any other base) that would require it's own special mention in a rule (8-2-M) and it's own mention in the rule supplement #1? A BR may overrun 1B with being in jeopardy, which cannot happen at any other base. So we go to the rule supplement, . . it must be made prior to the runner returning to first while the ball is live . There is no contradiction from the rule, it now adds to the rule a specific condition, that of the status of the ball, to the exclusion of any dead ball appeals (if you mention one instance, you exclude the other instance).

FWIW, I am in agreement with Steve's analysis (after all, it is a missed base), and that there is a poor choice of wording. It should be written as:
To make a live ball appeal, the appeal must be made before the BR returns to first base. The appeal can also be made during a dead ball if the BR did not return to first base and advanced to another base.

(edited to add)
oops, I should have read other responses before I typed this, but I didn't so here it is in slightly different words.



I think you are missing the forrest because of the trees....

This does not exclude a deadball appeal....

Let me see if this makes sense to you:

If the appeal is made while the ball is live, it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.

Does that help?

If both these statements hold:
If the appeal is made while the ball is live, it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.
If the appeal is made while the ball is not live, it must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.
Then there's a simpler way to say this:
The appeal must be made prior to the runner returning to the base.

But they didn't say that, so the question is why?
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Point taken ... on both counts.

I guess the long and short is ... the Rules Supplements are not the rules, and if they seem to add something or change something from the rules, then either they are worded poorly, we're reading them wrong, or they are just flat incorrect. As to why this rule needed an RS (a wrong one at that)... who knows... I don't think it did! :)

And without going "Irish" on anyone, this is a no brainer. BY RULE, the runner still has not touched 1B and is liable to be retired via a proper live ball or dead ball appeal. Obviously, a live ball appeal is not available at this point.

RS#1.L applies when a runner is returning to 1B. The runner did not return to 1B, so this does not apply.

A missed base is a missed base. By rule, touching the wrong base is the same a missing a base and should be handled has such.

No, it means that a live ball appeal must occur before the runner returns. A missed base appeal is always allowed with a dead ball (given no other dead ball restrictions).

It's not allowed if the runner returns. Though you suggest to me perhaps what they were trying for. A live ball appeal can occur before a returning runner returns but a dead ball appeal cannot.
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Possibly semantics (as is this entire thread, truthfully), but both a live ball and a dead ball appeal can be made; the result just can't be an out if the runner being appealed has returned or is standing on the base being appealed. And, I submit that THAT is what the sentence in the RS is supposed to be telling us.

So, how is it different than any other missed base? Now, it isn't; but before the rule change to "one big base" after the BR passed first base, it did serve a purpose, if the runner returned to the "wrong" base. I submit this should have been a "housekeeping" editorial change at that time, but remains to confuse some (just like the "wreck" that is obstruction by definition).