A "food for thought" play
 

I was at a friends party today and ran into a coach that I have umpired this season (talk about small worlds). We got to talking about his game the other night and he tells me this story (I am not the BU at this game)

12U - ASA Ruleset

They have a play called CHAOS. . .R1 on 1B. . .on a dropped 3rd strike to Batter, he has the batter break towards first. But the runner never intends to go to first, only to draw a throw. Most of the catchers at this level FORGET they dont have to throw down to first in this situation because there is no DTS. More times than not, the throw is made down to first and R1 basically "walks" to 2B. and usually no call made by umpire

Thats the basics of the story.

I told him that I would call INTERFERENCE. . .that if I believed that the BR BREAKING TO 1st is in an obvious (planned) attempt to distract the catcher and hinders her from making the play, it would be INTERFERENCE. Now, the "play," in my mind, would be a normal throw to second base or throwback to the pitcher.

SO I left the party and then thought to myself. . .Is R1 also out?? Interference preventing a proper play?

Your thoughts are appreciated as always

Common play here in Alabama at 10 - 16s. You've got nothing, except a runner at second and either one or two outs. If they're dumb enough to throw it over there, I'm dumb enough to let 'em.

I know of no official rules set that has interference on this..

ASA specifically states that this is NOT interference.

Irish,
WHERE?? I have been looking thru the book, cant seem to find it. . .
Z

8-7-p note.

How many outs? I will assume that you are referring to <2. I've got nothing, the catcher needs to know the game situation also.

Nothing here. Defense just needs to know the situation. As an umpire in this situation, I am verbalizing, Batter out and signalling during the break to 1B.

You've got nothing here. You DEFINITELY don't have two outs. I've seen batters drop the bat and jog to first on ball 3, while R1 jogs to 2nd. Also not illegal. (And as a note - same team tried that twice once and got thrown out at 2nd the 2nd time).

FYI or Trivia your choice.
Several years ago this play used to be a rules violation, thinking around 1995 or so. Was only for a few years then back to the old catcher should know the situation.

Penalty was all runners back to the base occupied at TOP, (time of pitch) unless they were running/stealing at TOP.
Reason: Unsporting

something to think about.....verbalizing that the batter is out could be construed as coaching the defense that a throw is not necessary. When some variation of this happens in one of my games, I wait until the "chaos" is over then announce that the batter is out if necessary.

I disagree. A simple "out!" bu the PU on this situation isn't any different than the BU making a simple "out! at 2B on a routine play, or any other "out!" we make. It doesn't "coach" anyone... it's doing our job.

+1

It's our job to communicate. It's not like you're telling the catcher not to throw, you're just communicating. IMO, this is NOT coaching.

Do you call the batter out on a regular strikeout? One where F2 caught the ball? If so, you're not following ASA mechanics. If not - then when you DO call batter out on the OP, you ARE coaching.

And if it's a questionable dropped ball by the catcher on the strikeout, do you just stand there and let them guess the out? No, you communicate the out.

I think many of us announce the batter is out when not eligible to attempt 1st, so I guess we better get a coaching or not ruling somewhere. :confused:

COMPLETELY different situation. Obviously, when something requires judgement and a ruling, we are expected to give it.

What in the world are you "ruling" on in the OP if you verbally call an obviously out batter "out"? You would not do that with no one on base... or if the ball was clearly caught.

If you're not coaching, then what is the intent of your extra call? There's nothing to rule on here - your SOLE purpose in making an extra announcement is to clue in the defense - if you say it's something else, aren't you lying to yourself?

Honestly, I wish this was our mechanic. Alas, it's not. If you revise the mechanic to say, "Batter's out" after a third strike in EVERY situation where that batter is, in fact, out - then you're not doing anything different (coaching, helping the catcher, whatever) if you say it in the OP. To me ... this is much cleaner and clearer than what we're told to do. But unfortunately ... it's not what we're told to do.

Actually, I believe it has been taught that this is acceptable when the player not eligible to advance on the ball begins to go toward 1B, not automatically on every ocassion. All you are doing is informing the retired player they are out and not entitled to attempt to advance.

It is certainly what I have been taught; but it is also not in any umpire manual (that I can find, anyway). But, I consider verbalizing "batter's out" when she begins to run to 1B when not eligible a routine thing, so I guess I'm surprised anyone has an issue with it.

I'm signaling an out on a regular strikeout. When other stuff happens, I make sure everybody knows what I've got. My voice can be heard equally by the offense and the defense. There is no disadvantage to anybody.

Consider this: I have a close tag play for the 3rd out. Meanwhile, there's another baserunner rounding 3rd trying to score. A good defensive player who just made the tag isn't going to wait for my call. They're going to come up firing to the plate. I'm gonna call my out. Then I'm gonna keep calling my out and communicating the situation.

If I get my butt chewed at a national for verbalizing the batter's out as in the OP, then so be it. I'll still sleep okay at night. ;)

This is the mechanic for on particular organization that has four letters and plays its games in the spring.

It's good to hear that - I haven't seen it taught down here at all ... but I vastly prefer that. As long as we do it EVERY time, and not just when it appears there's a trick play going on.

And your out signal differs from a strike signal ... how?

Ask Doug Eddings. He can probably clarify that for you! :D