When is "too late?"

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by Stu Clary

Sorry, KJ, but but in my opinion that's a case of Over Officiatiating.

Stu,
Absolutely a fair point. And I am not by nature anywhere close to being an OOO....it's just not my style.

Here was the thing though, it was a tourney elimination game. What would I have done if I had let the red team change their choice, and the white team HC complained? That was the one thing thing that came to my mind when it became obvious that the red team captain had blundered.

I guess if I had let the red team change their choice, and the white HC disagreed, he always could have lodged a protest with the TD.

I'm not trying to make a case here for my decision as to how I dealt with the sitch as being the "right way" to handle it. For all I know, I could have been 100% dead wrong. But I did have to make a decision on the spot. This wasn't about looking for a nit to pick.

Being as how I can't find anything (yet) in either the ASA Rule Book, Case Book, or Umpire's Clinic Manual covering the proper procedure for coin flips; the question I'll throw out to the board is....what should we do if there is some kind of mess-up during a coin flip? What is the best/proper way to handle it?
Opinions please. Citations/references if you have any that are pertinent.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

What is the best/proper way to handle it?
Opinions please. Citations/references if you have any that are pertinent.

I think that there's no "proper" way, as there's no rules here. But if you want references, I can tell you that thousands of football referees have had a 6th grader say, "We want to kick off" and corrected them "Are you sure you don't want to defer?" Several times a season. I don't think you can be faulted for what you did - like you say, you had to decide on the spot.

But as to your worry about a protest, exactly what rule would they win this protest by? Does it actually say anywhere that the first word uttered by any player on the coin-flip-winning side is binding? If anything, the girl's utterance was her answer TO HER COACH when he asked her what SHE wanted. You never got an answer from the coach. (Honestly, I'm not sure I'd have enforced a coach for saying it wrong either... but you at least have a ready-made fix with the girl saying it).

[NCASAUmp]

Not to mention the fact that at this point, nothing has happened. No one has stepped up to bat, no plays have been made, no pitches have been delivered.

If a coach comes up to me during the game and says, "Blue, I want to enter #24 into the game. Wait, I mean #25," I'm not going to force him to put #24 into that spot and then substitute #25 in for #24.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Not to mention the fact that at this point, nothing has happened. No one has stepped up to bat, no plays have been made, no pitches have been delivered.

If a coach comes up to me during the game and says, "Blue, I want to enter #24 into the game. Wait, I mean #25," I'm not going to force him to put #24 into that spot and then substitute #25 in for #24.

Dave,
Agree, nothing has happened. That being said, is that an adequate and proper answer to the white team HC if he starts to complain?

The substitution comparison is a good one. Again, let me state for the record I am not looking to force a coach to do something that he either did not intend to do or can't legally do regarding substitutions. Good line-up card/substitution management on the part of the PU dictates that we repeat the change to the coach to make sure that is the change that what he wants, BEFORE we report it to the official scorer or the other team. But like your sitch, there is a defined point where the sub (or the intentional walk) is official.

Another comparison might be when a coach has a "result of the play" option
that could occur on an IP or a catcher's obstruction sitch.
Now, unlike my sitch, "stuff has happened." But again the question is, once the coach indicates his choice, can he change it?

[umpirebob71]

I would agree with the statement that the girls answered the coaches question, not yours. That would be my out with the other coach, should he complain.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Dave,
Agree, nothing has happened. That being said, is that an adequate and proper answer to the white team HC if he starts to complain?

The substitution comparison is a good one. Again, let me state for the record I am not looking to force a coach to do something that he either did not intend to do or can't legally do regarding substitutions. Good line-up card/substitution management on the part of the PU dictates that we repeat the change to the coach to make sure that is the change that what he wants, BEFORE we report it to the official scorer or the other team. But like your sitch, there is a defined point where the sub (or the intentional walk) is official.

Another comparison might be when a coach has a "result of the play" option
that could occur on an IP or a catcher's obstruction sitch.
Now, unlike my sitch, "stuff has happened." But again the question is, once the coach indicates his choice, can he change it?

The difference between your situation and mine is that there is a rule that explicitly tells me the status of that batter, who has now instantly become a batter-runner by being awarded 1B. The rules clearly dictate what happens in this specific situation, and I'm obligated to enforce them as written.

In your case, however, there is nothing in the ASA rule book that covers a "proper" coin toss. Do you flip it with your thumb? Toss it from your hand? Who calls it?

Should there be something written in stone from ASA? No, of course not, and I don't believe there ever should be. Use good judgment out there. If they immediately correct their mistake, I'm not going to force them to stick with the first thing they said.

Besides, doing so could come back to bite us. If a runner from the visiting team overslides the base and you initially call "safe," then call the runner out on a tag, I guaran-damn-tee you the "away" coach is going to have a few words with you about sticking with the first thing you said.

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

The difference between your situation and mine is that there is a rule that explicitly tells me the status of that batter, who has now instantly become a batter-runner by being awarded 1B. The rules clearly dictate what happens in this specific situation, and I'm obligated to enforce them as written.

In your case, however, there is nothing in the ASA rule book that covers a "proper" coin toss. Do you flip it with your thumb? Toss it from your hand? Who calls it?

Should there be something written in stone from ASA? No, of course not, and I don't believe there ever should be. Use good judgment out there. If they immediately correct their mistake, I'm not going to force them to stick with the first thing they said.

Besides, doing so could come back to bite us. If a runner from the visiting team overslides the base and you initially call "safe," then call the runner out on a tag, I guaran-damn-tee you the "away" coach is going to have a few words with you about sticking with the first thing you said.

As I said in an earlier reply, "For all I know I could have been 100% wrong." However I do not think for a minute that I did not "use good judgement out there." Something went askew. I had to make a decision at that moment (without having knowledge of any ASA recommended procedure or interp to guide me) using judgement that I felt would be fair to BOTH teams. I don't think you'd get any argument from coaches that a large percentage of the time being home team provides them a distinct advantage.

I think that perhaps at some point, it would not be a bad idea at all for ASA to have a paragraph somewhere in the rule book, the rules supplement, or the clinic guide, that lays out the proper procedure for a coin flip. I mean heck, they sell the darn ASA flipping coins.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

As I said in an earlier reply, "For all I know I could have been 100% wrong." However I do not think for a minute that I did not "use good judgement out there." Something went askew. I had to make a decision at that moment (without having knowledge of any ASA recommended procedure or interp to guide me) using judgement that I felt would be fair to BOTH teams. I don't think you'd get any argument from coaches that a large percentage of the time being home team provides them a distinct advantage.

KJ, I hope you know that my comment about "good judgment" was not meant to be a slight in any way. I would think that my comments on here would show that I'm not one to give cheap shots across the bow (unless you play the piano). It's merely a reminder to us all that sometimes, rules and procedures are intended to be written documentation of common sense when it comes to fair play.

Could you force them to stick with their initial utterance? Sure, and I think that everyone is completely aware of the concept of "home team advantage." They've had an entire lifetime up until that moment to determine what they should say when they win the coin toss.

However, I don't think that it's out of the question to give a simple, calm verification of "away?" It's quite obviously the coach had a massive brain fart, and I'm not going to allow the coin toss to set the tone of the rest of the game. Nor do I believe that allowing a coach to verify their decision is in any way unfair to the opposing team.

That being said, it's still largely situational. If they realize their mistake after we're already walking away, I'm telling that coach that it's too late.

Originally Posted by KJUmp

I think that perhaps at some point, it would not be a bad idea at all for ASA to have a paragraph somewhere in the rule book, the rules supplement, or the clinic guide, that lays out the proper procedure for a coin flip. I mean heck, they sell the darn ASA flipping coins.

Maybe, but we'll see. I never thought ASA would ever spell out different ways of altering a bat, nor did I think they would ever publish a "safety guideline" in the rule book.

And yet they did!

[KJUmp]

Originally Posted by mbcrowder

I think that there's no "proper" way, as there's no rules here. But if you want references, I can tell you that thousands of football referees have had a 6th grader say, "We want to kick off" and corrected them "Are you sure you don't want to defer?" Several times a season. I don't think you can be faulted for what you did - like you say, you had to decide on the spot.

But as to your worry about a protest, exactly what rule would they win this protest by? Does it actually say anywhere that the first word uttered by any player on the coin-flip-winning side is binding? If anything, the girl's utterance was her answer TO HER COACH when he asked her what SHE wanted. You never got an answer from the coach. (Honestly, I'm not sure I'd have enforced a coach for saying it wrong either... but you at least have a ready-made fix with the girl saying it).

Good point.
The red part....an even better point.