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Multiple Obstructions
This came up a few years ago, and I posted it then - generating some lively discussion. It came up again while sitting under the Umpire Tree last week, so I thought I'd see if it generates any new thoughts this time around...
No one on base, B hits the ball between the outfielders. As she's rounding first, F3 is standing on the bag. BU rules and signals obstruction, mentally noting that this runner would have gotten to third base without the obstruction. B rounding 2nd, and the throw, heading from CF to a deep SS, is dropped by the SS. While rounding 2nd, she collides with an inattentive F4 watching the play. BU resignals the obstruction, and based on where the ball is and where the runner is, again decides that based on this OBS alone, she should get 3rd. Runner slides safely into third base. PU and BU discuss, and both had the same awards - but both feel that had NEITHER obstruction occured, AND the misplay at F6 happened as it did, this runner likely would have scored. What do you do? |
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Thank you Case closed. protest fee is $200.00 I'll accept their ruling. ;) |
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Announce the OBS, leave her at 3B and hustle into position. |
iF I've got the obstructed runner getting 3B, and she's obstructed again, I'm going to likely be more generous in what I think she'd have made without either obstruction having happened. Chances are, I'll award home.
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Mike made my point. By gut, what you want to do (and a few of you have said so) is send her home... but by rule, she gets 3rd. Contrary to what Dakota sais above, we are NOT supposed to take post-obstruction evidence into account (like most baseball codes)... that post is not accurate. OBS awards are not cumulative. On EACH obstruction individually, the award was 3rd. You can't take the bobble into account to revise the first OBS's award, and the 2nd OBS happened after the bobble.
The award is 3rd. |
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The 2nd OBS happened after the bobble - and taking that into consideration, the award was third.
Not sure how one would have a rule citation to prove a negative. The OBS rule tells you what to rule when you see obstruction. There's no language at all anywhere that one could even mildly infer that one should take something that happened before the OBS into account, and case plays tell us not to take something that happened after the OBS into account... so I think you'd need to cite a rule reference to backup an opinion that they should be cumulative. |
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The OP is not clear as to which came first, OBS F4 or bobble. Also, not clear which side of 2nd the OBS F4 was.
The runner made 3rd w/o any award. The crux seems to be that if the runner had not reached 2nd when the throw reached SS, she would not have made 3rd w/o the bobble. Then, it's a question of whether the OBS F3 caused that delay or just a slow runner. If slow and not the OBS F3, then no award at all, even if she stops at 2nd. If that was caused by the OBS F3 and ITUJ, she would have reached 3rd, then the OBS F4 matters. But, given "the runner had not reached 2nd when the throw reached SS", judging that she would have reached HP, even with the bobble, seems a real reach. However, if the OBS were major, and the SS still had not controlled the ball when she reached 3rd, and there was some indication she would have tried for home without the OBS, then a very tough call. Besides, BU always hustle to position after a play! ;) :p |
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You can "what if" until hell freezes over, the BU made an assessment of 3B AFTER all action, initial and subsequent, occurred. |
<I>"No one on base, B hits the ball between the outfielders. As she's rounding first, F3 is standing on the bag. BU rules and signals obstruction, mentally noting that this runner would have gotten to third base without the obstruction."<?I>
WOW so if the second OBS did not occur the umpire was going to award 3rd for the fielder standing on 1st. HTBT situation, but I would not I would not make that judgment until the play fully developed. As for the OP. Call obs, award 3rd and get ready for the next pitch. Or, if she did try to go home make the judgment at the time she was tagged out or nothing if she made it home. :D |
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Am I the only one to notice that the OP specifically states that the judgment of 3B on the second obstruction was based only on where the runner was at the time of the obstruction? Each OBS judgment was made as a stand-alone judgment. The concept of where the runner would have been had the first obstruction not occurred is what is missing from the second judgment. That the conversation with the PU allowed him to think it through is not to be casually thrown out. The two independent judgments are in his head until the base awards are announced, and just as an umpire is allowed to think through the action on any other call before verbalizing, he is allowed to think through the action on this one. |
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No, it is not. BU resignals the obstruction, and based on where the ball is and where the runner is, again decides that based on this OBS alone, she should get 3rd. The OP specifically noted that AFTER the second OBS, the BU STILL had 3B as the award. There is the judgment made by the ruling umpire as instructed in the rule cited. Quote:
And if after the 2nd OBS the BU thought the award should be home, no problem. HOWEVER, that isn't what the OP presented. Its not my play, your play or anyone elses to call, it is the BU and when he saw the 2nd OBS, he thought 3B. This isn't a tote board where you just keep adding things up like Trapper McIntyre. |
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BU resignals the obstruction, and based on where the ball is and where the runner is,again decides that based on this OBS alone, she should get 3rd. Based on "this OBS alone"... i.e. not considering the previous obstruction. The effect of the previous obstruction is not rendered moot by a second violation by the same team. That the calling umpire did not take this into consideration at the time of the second obstruction does not mean he cannot reconsider and take it into account later before making the base award. The effect of both obstructions is to be removed for the proper base award. The umpire is not locked down merely because he did not consider that at the instant of the second obstruction. Theorizing that the PU "talked him into" something is adding illegitimacy to the OP that is not present as described. |
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Just to clarify, to me I see Irish saying that you have the runner only to 3rd because that's what the BU ruled and you don't want him changing that by talking to the PU. And I see Dakota saying, the BU should have awarded home in his initial ruling because his initial ruling did not include the effect of all the obstruction. And he doesn't really care about the conversation. Is that an accurate representation of what you're both saying? I gather Irish that you may be additionally saying that only the current obstruction should be considered for the current award but you don't seem to be addressing the why of that position. ________ Volcano Vaporizers |
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Believe it or not we are on the same page on this one. Sure, in your mind say. Hit to the outfield, hit in the gap, she had to regain her momentum, so-on-and-so-forth. I will protect her to third. But there are a lot of "what-if that can happen between 1st and 3rd. Let's say she is slow and the outfielder has a great arm (this is not based on the OP). She get's tag out a quarter of the way between 2nd and 3rd. Are you going to award her home or call her out? My biggest beef with obstruction is Umpires (in my father's words: Ticky-Tacky) don't let the play develop. They see obstruction make a decision. Then things happen that should change their decision and they don't. Or, they just call it to fast. OBS should be seen as "about-to-receive", but called as "ball-in-hand" |
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I don't care if he talks to the PU. I'm saying that if the BU thinks she should have scored, he would have been thinking home, not 3B. Whether you like it or not, you need to address the play as a whole. You don't take portions and add them all together at the end of the play. When a BR is OBS at 1B and the throw from F6 enters DBT, do you award the BR first on the OBS and then two more on the overthrow? When a player walks and the ball goes through the backstop, do you add one and one and put the player on 2B? Of course, not. I wonder if the same would have happened if the second OBS was on the 1B side of 2B? |
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If you do not determine the base which the runner would have reach safely had the OBS not occurred, how are you going to know to where you are protecting that runner? As noted in the RS, how will you know when the player has run out of protection and is available to be put out if you don't know which base that is? Quote:
BTW, I'm a firm believer an umpire should observe a team, learn their strengths, weaknesses and tendencies and use this data in making judgments such as that with OBS. |
Irish: You know my stance on OBS. It is called too often for reasons that have nothing to do with the play. Yes I do decide what base I will protect the runner to at the time of the OBS. All I am saying is you must let the play fully develop take all the information in before making the judgment.
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