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charliej47 Sat May 22, 2010 09:47am
Boo
 
ASA - I'm calling the plate. For shortness I'll use numbers.
B1 bats and gets on 1st. B3 bats and strikes out. B4 comes to the box and HC calls time and requests BOO rule. I whip out my handy-dandy lineup cards and sure enough we have a BOO. I call B2 out for the second out and tell VC to put B3 back in the box. VC wants to protest. I inform the HC that the VC is protesting. B3 strikes out again to end the inning. game continues and the visiting team wins by 3.

I did not hear back from the committee so I guess I was upheld.

I have checked the rules and as far as I can determine I did it correctly. Any one have any comments?:D

PSUchem Sat May 22, 2010 10:13am
In ASA, B2 is out for BOO, B3's out stands, and B4 should have batted. HC should have protested because you removed another out. Not sure why VC protested?

BlitzkriegBob Sat May 22, 2010 10:22am
PSU is correct, but I'm left wondering why you let B3 bat again even though you apparently let her initial strikeout stand. I've never been involved in a protest, but IMO since B4 should have been the correct batter, the protest would have been upheld had the visiting team lost the game.

vcblue Sat May 22, 2010 12:53pm
ASA Rule 7-2-c-exception: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time a bat... skip that player...

BretMan Sat May 22, 2010 05:38pm
Charlie, I know that you work high school ball here in Ohio. Your call would have been correct under NFHS rules- IF you would have negated B3's first strike out and cancelled her "first" out, which it sounds like you didn't do.

Your final call enforced some sort of hybrid combination of the FED rule and the ASA rule that isn't correct for either one!

As pointed out, the ASA rule is a little bit different. The out made by an improper batter stands. Her at-bat is official. Since she is the next batter in the line-up, but her at-bat has been completed, the next proper batter should be B4.

This is one of those nagging rule differences that we get to deal with. It doesn't help matters that the BOO rule is a full page long and has many twists and turns to begin with. When you factor in that it's a rule we rarely deal with on the field, not really getting much chance to wrap our minds around all the in's and out's in a practical "real world" situation, it makes it easy to miss one of these nagging points.

By the way, the reason you never heard anything back about the protest is probably because the protesting team won the game. When that happens, the protest is moot and ignored.

greymule Sat May 22, 2010 09:25pm
ASA, Fed, and NCAA all treat BOO differently.

As previous posters have noted, in the OP, ASA would have B3's out stand and B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. B3 is skipped over, and B4 bats. However, if B4 had batted instead of B2 and struck out, then B4's strikeout would stand, B2 would be out, and B3 would bat followed by B4 (batting for the second time in the inning).

In ASA, it is never to the disadvantage of the defense to appeal BOO. In NCAA (which follows OBR) and Fed, there are situations in which it's better not to appeal.

IRISHMAFIA Sun May 23, 2010 12:20am
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 678086)
ASA, Fed, and NCAA all treat BOO differently.

As previous posters have noted, in the OP, ASA would have B3's out stand and B2 out for failing to bat in the proper order. B3 is skipped over, and B4 bats. However, if B4 had batted instead of B2 and struck out, then B4's strikeout would stand, B2 would be out, and B3 would bat followed by B4 (batting for the second time in the inning).
No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

greymule Sun May 23, 2010 08:05am
No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

Well, we disagree on this. I'm interpreting ". . . and is scheduled to be the proper batter" as applying at the moment the penalty is enforced, not after a batter or several batters later in the inning.

In other words, I think you skip B3 if he made an out when B2 was supposed to bat, or B5 instead of B4, or B9 instead of B8. But if, for example, B8 batted and made an out when B4 was supposed to bat, then B4 is out, B5 bats, and B8 would bat a second time in that inning if his turn came up. (Otherwise, the rules should say something about not batting again in the inning until you've gone through the order.)

I suspect you are deriving your interpretation partly from Part d, where the change of inning would appear to allow the batter "scheduled to be the proper batter" to bat again. For example, B3 bats instead of B2 and strikes out for the second out. The defense appeals the BOO. B2 is called out for the third out. Now, according to Part d, B3 leads off the next inning, batting for the second time in a row.

But this is merely my reading of the rules. I never sought an official ruling from ASA. I don't know of a definitive case play on this situation, but if I get time today, I'll see whether I can find one.

IRISHMAFIA Sun May 23, 2010 02:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 678108)
No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.

Well, we disagree on this. I'm interpreting ". . . and is scheduled to be the proper batter" as applying at the moment the penalty is enforced, not after a batter or several batters later in the inning.

In other words, I think you skip B3 if he made an out when B2 was supposed to bat, or B5 instead of B4, or B9 instead of B8. But if, for example, B8 batted and made an out when B4 was supposed to bat, then B4 is out, B5 bats, and B8 would bat a second time in that inning if his turn came up. (Otherwise, the rules should say something about not batting again in the inning until you've gone through the order.)

I suspect you are deriving your interpretation partly from Part d, where the change of inning would appear to allow the batter "scheduled to be the proper batter" to bat again. For example, B3 bats instead of B2 and strikes out for the second out. The defense appeals the BOO. B2 is called out for the third out. Now, according to Part d, B3 leads off the next inning, batting for the second time in a row.

But this is merely my reading of the rules. I never sought an official ruling from ASA. I don't know of a definitive case play on this situation, but if I get time today, I'll see whether I can find one.
Go to an earlier thread here.

greymule Sun May 23, 2010 03:54pm
Yes, there was an earlier thread on this, too.

Everything in the "clarifications" makes sense to me, including:

"EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

I read this literally, as applying only when the batter who batted out of order and made an out happens to be the next proper batter. I don't see anything in the clarifications or the rules indicating that any batter who bats out of order and makes an out (and BOO is appealed) is skipped over if he is to come to bat later in the inning.

But if this is indeed the case, then a rule should be written to reflect that fact, e.g., "If an improper batter makes an out and the defense appeals, the out made by the improper batter counts, the batter who failed to bat when he should have is called out, the next batter in the lineup becomes the proper batter, and the improper batter who made an out is skipped over the first time he comes to bat later in the inning."

Otherwise, we're expanding the exception, which clearly applies in one specific case, to everybody in the lineup.

But again, let's see a case play or get a ruling from ASA. In fact, I'll see if I still have Bob Mauger's e-mail address.

IRISHMAFIA Sun May 23, 2010 04:16pm
Whatever

MD Longhorn Mon May 24, 2010 10:50am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 678092)
No, I believe in ASA, a batter who has made an out would not be provided the opportunity to make another out in the same inning until the other 8/9 batters have had an equal opportunity.
I'm very reluctant to disagree with Mike... ever... as I'm usually proved wrong. But I'm about 99.9% sure this statement is incorrect. B1, B4 K, BOO appeal (B2 out for not batting, B4's out stands), B3 ... then B4 is up to bat. You don't skip that batter. Please show me the rule where it says you do.

If you do ... what about this:

B1, B9K, BOO Appeal (B2 out for not batting, B9's K stands)... then B3,4,5,6,7,8 all hit - are you skipping 9 now?

IRISHMAFIA Mon May 24, 2010 11:07pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 678292)
I'm very reluctant to disagree with Mike... ever... as I'm usually proved wrong. But I'm about 99.9% sure this statement is incorrect. B1, B4 K, BOO appeal (B2 out for not batting, B4's out stands), B3 ... then B4 is up to bat. You don't skip that batter. Please show me the rule where it says you do.
From the previously cited Rule Clarifications:

Play 1: With no outs, B9 is scheduled to bat but B1 bats. B1 hits a fly ball that is caught by F7. Before the next pitch, the defense appeals that B1 batted out of order.
Ruling: B9 is out as B9 is the correct batter and B1 remains out. B2 bats next with two outs. Per Rule 7, Section 2 D 2, after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before the next pitch, legal or illegal, to the following batter and before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory; the batter who should have batted is out and the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat. EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

charliej47 Tue May 25, 2010 05:42am
Boo
 
Going back to the original OP:
I discussed this with the state ASA rules interpreter and B3 would be skipped "for that round" of batting. If the team batted around and B3 came up the "second" time then she would bat.

Also NFHS Rule 7.1.2 CASE book situations G and H describe the play where B3 would bat again as the proper batter.:D

charliej47 Tue May 25, 2010 05:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BretMan (Post 678063)
Charlie, I know that you work high school ball here in Ohio. Your call would have been correct under NFHS rules- IF you would have negated B3's first strike out and cancelled her "first" out, which it sounds like you didn't do.

Your final call enforced some sort of hybrid combination of the FED rule and the ASA rule that isn't correct for either one!

As pointed out, the ASA rule is a little bit different. The out made by an improper batter stands. Her at-bat is official. Since she is the next batter in the line-up, but her at-bat has been completed, the next proper batter should be B4.

This is one of those nagging rule differences that we get to deal with. It doesn't help matters that the BOO rule is a full page long and has many twists and turns to begin with. When you factor in that it's a rule we rarely deal with on the field, not really getting much chance to wrap our minds around all the in's and out's in a practical "real world" situation, it makes it easy to miss one of these nagging points.

By the way, the reason you never heard anything back about the protest is probably because the protesting team won the game. When that happens, the protest is moot and ignored.
IT appears that the only differenced between ASA and NFHS is that the B3 is skipped for ASA and would bat again for NFHS.:D

Dakota Tue May 25, 2010 07:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47 (Post 678405)
IT appears that the only differenced between ASA and NFHS is that the B3 is skipped for ASA and would bat again for NFHS.:D
The out made by B3 stands in ASA and does not in NFHS.

BlitzkriegBob Tue May 25, 2010 07:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47 (Post 678405)
IT appears that the only differenced between ASA and NFHS is that the B3 is skipped for ASA and would bat again for NFHS.:D
No, another difference is that in NFHS, B3's initial strikeout would be negated, and there would only be one out on B2 being skipped. In ASA, B2 would be out for being skipped, and B3's strikeout would stand for a total of two outs.

PSUchem Tue May 25, 2010 07:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 678162)

"EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

I read this literally, as applying only when the batter who batted out of order and made an out happens to be the next proper batter. I don't see anything in the clarifications or the rules indicating that any batter who bats out of order and makes an out (and BOO is appealed) is skipped over if he is to come to bat later in the inning.
I'm also reluctant to disagree with Mike, but I'm sticking with the comments made by greymule and others. I take the exception literally.

Speaking ASA,
If B1 is scheduled to bat, but B3 bats instead and makes an out: B2 is called out for BOO, B3's out stands, B3 is skipped based on the exception because she is now the proper batter at that instant, and B4 will bat.

If B1 is scheduled to bat, but B4 bats instead and makes an out: B2 is called out for BOO, B4's out stands, B3 is scheduled to be the proper batter, so she is brought to the plate. At the time of "play ball," the order is then B3, B4, B5...

After establishing the proper batter at the time of the BOO, the lineup thereafter cannot change because no rule supports such a change. The exception applies only to the instant that you are deciding who is the proper batter.

Good luck keeping the scorebook on that one.

charliej47 Tue May 25, 2010 07:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BlitzkriegBob (Post 678410)
No, another difference is that in NFHS, B3's initial strikeout would be negated, and there would only be one out on B2 being skipped. In ASA, B2 would be out for being skipped, and B3's strikeout would stand for a total of two outs.
As I read the NFHS Case Book, the play is that if B3 makes an out then that out stands. The book states that if B3 gets on base that B3 would be pulled off the base and put back into the box to bat again, if B3 makes an out then the out stands.

MD Longhorn Tue May 25, 2010 08:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 678396)
From the previously cited Rule Clarifications:

Play 1: With no outs, B9 is scheduled to bat but B1 bats. B1 hits a fly ball that is caught by F7. Before the next pitch, the defense appeals that B1 batted out of order.
Ruling: B9 is out as B9 is the correct batter and B1 remains out. B2 bats next with two outs. Per Rule 7, Section 2 D 2, after the incorrect batter has completed their turn at bat and before the next pitch, legal or illegal, to the following batter and before the pitcher and all infielders have clearly vacated their normal fielding positions and have left fair territory; the batter who should have batted is out and the next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat. EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.
Yes ... we agree with that. No one is disputing that if the player that incorrectly batted is scheduled up next (as B1 would be if B9 was supposed to bat), you skip that batter. However, you've extended this to skip a FUTURE batter should the player that batted out of order come up to bat later in that inning. I find no support for that anywhere.

JefferMC Tue May 25, 2010 09:51am
You would find support from the scorekeeper who needs a box on the scoresheet to record the player's at-bat, and since he's already taken one in the current column.

Oh, you meant in the rulebook. Well, who cares about that old thing. :rolleyes:

HugoTafurst Tue May 25, 2010 10:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47 (Post 678413)
As I read the NFHS Case Book, the play is that if B3 makes an out then that out stands. The book states that if B3 gets on base that B3 would be pulled off the base and put back into the box to bat again, if B3 makes an out then the out stands.
Try 7.1.2 (H)
In the case book play, proper batter (B1) was skipped. Improper batter (B2)
hits ground ball and is (a) safe at 1st or (b) out at first.

Result: B1 is declared out, B2's at bat is nullified.
In (a) B2 is removed from base.
In both cases, B2 comes up to bat with one out.

IRISHMAFIA Tue May 25, 2010 11:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 678421)
Yes ... we agree with that. No one is disputing that if the player that incorrectly batted is scheduled up next (as B1 would be if B9 was supposed to bat), you skip that batter. However, you've extended this to skip a FUTURE batter should the player that batted out of order come up to bat later in that inning. I find no support for that anywhere.
A lot of people keep on referring to the literal interpretation. Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

Is not a "proper batter" the one scheduled to bat after that batter which precedes him/her in the line up?

You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?

If you want to take it literally......

greymule Tue May 25, 2010 12:19pm
Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

It depends on what the meaning of is is.

"If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter."

If we understand present tense to refer to the present and thus understand is to mean is and not will at some later point be, then you skip over that batter only if he is at present scheduled to be the proper batter.

Obviously, everybody in the lineup is scheduled to be the proper batter at some point.

Dakota Tue May 25, 2010 01:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by charliej47 (Post 678413)
As I read the NFHS Case Book, the play is that if B3 makes an out then that out stands. The book states that if B3 gets on base that B3 would be pulled off the base and put back into the box to bat again, if B3 makes an out then the out stands.
No, that's not what it says. Both the rule book and the case book state that the at-bat by the improper batter is negated. The at-bat cannot be negated and also have the out stand.

ASA, by contrast, states that the advance of the runners is nullified, but not that the at-bat is negated.

The NFHS rule could be a bit more clear on this point, since the PENALTY says,
Quote:
When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the next pitch (legal or illegal), or prior to an intentional base on balls (S.P.), or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending. The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). The improper batter's time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout/bench area. All outs stand and runners who were not declared out must return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. If a runner advances because of a stolen base, wild pitch, passed ball (F.P.) or an illegal pitch (F.P.) while the improper batter is at bat, such advance is legal.
But in the full context of the rule, and of the case play, an out recorded by the improper batter does NOT stand.

The case play makes this clear if you do the math. It ends by stating there is one out. If the proper batter is declared out, then the improper batter's out must have been negated, otherwise there would be 2 outs.

MD Longhorn Tue May 25, 2010 01:26pm
[QUOTE=IRISHMAFIA;678449]You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?QUOTE]

Actually, I think you just made my point for me... You do not take a proper batter off the base to hit because the rulebook specifically tells you not to. If what you're asserting is the way they intended it, they would not have needed to tell us again.

In fact, I believe there was a case play with two different BOO's about 5-6 years ago that wouldn't have been BOO (on the 2nd one) if what you're asserting is what they intended ... so, now I have to dig through old books.

Is there a higher authority to ask this of?

Let me ask this... B1 singles... B6 strikes out... B2 ruled out for not batting, B6's out stands, 2 outs, B3 is up. B3-5 all hit. If B7 comes up, I have BOO again. If B6 comes up... do YOU have BOO?

Further... B1 singles ... B6 singles, B1 is thrown out at third base advancing... B2 ruled out for not batting, B1's out stands, remove B6 from the bases... B3-5 - NOW who do you have up?

Dakota Tue May 25, 2010 01:34pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 678449)
A lot of people keep on referring to the literal interpretation. Where in that rule clarification does it say it had to be the IMMEDIATE proper batter?

Is not a "proper batter" the one scheduled to bat after that batter which precedes him/her in the line up?

You do not take a "proper batter" off the base to hit, why would you bring back the "proper batter" who made a recorded out to come back?

If you want to take it literally......
In the context of the rule, "proper" and "improper" have a specific meaning with respect to who should have batted, who did bat, and who is to bat next. Broadening the meaning beyond that is not justified by the context.

I'd need more than what you have quoted to take this to mean the improper batter who makes an out is to lose her next time at bat. Specifically, I'd need ASA to say something very close to "If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat, skip that player's next turn at bat." But, then, ASA never has been known for directly and clearly worded rules.

greymule Tue May 25, 2010 01:38pm
B1 singles. B3 then bats out of order and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. The defense appeals the BOO.

ASA: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. The double play stands. Three outs, inning over. B4—correction: B3—leads off the next inning.

Fed: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. B1's out at 2B stands. B3 bats again with 2 out.

NCAA: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. B1 returns to 1B, and B3 bats with 1 out.

MD Longhorn Tue May 25, 2010 03:23pm
[QUOTE=greymule;678479]B1 singles. B3 then bats out of order and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. The defense appeals the BOO.

ASA: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. The double play stands. Three outs, inning over. B4 leads off the next inning.
[QUOTE]You sure? Playing devil's advocate here, but what rule prevents:

DP stands, B2 is out. Next inning... the last out of the PREVIOUS inning was B2. B3, who has not batted this inning, is up.

greymule Tue May 25, 2010 03:30pm
Oops! You're absolutely right. The next inning puts B3 up again. The parallel example is right in the "clarifications."

Thanks.

youngump Tue May 25, 2010 03:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 678501)
Oops! You're absolutely right. The next inning puts B3 up again. The parallel example is right in the "clarifications."

Thanks.
I should probably know this, but you're saying the exception:
EXCEPTION: If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.

only applies with in the inning. Don't have my rule book here, can somebody post that part of the rule for me? I would definitely have kicked this by bring B4 up to start the next inning.
________
California Dispensary

AtlUmpSteve Tue May 25, 2010 03:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 678497)
Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule (Post 678479)
B1 singles. B3 then bats out of order and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. The defense appeals the BOO.

ASA: B2 is out for failing to bat when he should have. The double play stands. Three outs, inning over. B4 leads off the next inning.
You sure? Playing devil's advocate here, but what rule prevents:

DP stands, B2 is out. Next inning... the last out of the PREVIOUS inning was B2. B3, who has not batted this inning, is up.
B3 does not bat next in ASA because B3 made an out which stood in the previous inning. Since that out (back end of the double play) stands, B3 loses that turn. You cannot have a scoresheet that both marks an out to that batting spot and then allows it to bat again.

B3 does bat in NFHS and NCAA, because that out is negated in both rule sets.

greymule Tue May 25, 2010 03:42pm
Here's a cut-and-paste from the ASA clarifications:

Play 2: With one out, B7 is scheduled to bat, however B8 bats. B8 hits a fly ball that is caught for the second out of the inning. The defense appeals that B8 batted out of order and the umpire calls B7 out for the third out of the inning. Who is the leadoff batter in the next inning?

Ruling: B8. In this case, since the second out of the inning was made by B8 and the third out was made by B7 for failure to bat in the proper order, B8 is now the leadoff batter in the next inning. When the batter declared out is the third out of the inning the correct batter to leadoff the next inning is the player who would have come to bat had the player been put out by ordinary play. (Rule 7, Section 2 D 2 d)

Apparently the scorekeeper has to use an asterisk or draw an arrow or something.

MD Longhorn Tue May 25, 2010 03:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 678506)
B3 does not bat next in ASA because B3 made an out which stood in the previous inning. Since that out (back end of the double play) stands, B3 loses that turn. You cannot have a scoresheet that both marks an out to that batting spot and then allows it to bat again.

B3 does bat in NFHS and NCAA, because that out is negated in both rule sets.
There are no rules I'm aware of that depend on how something looks in the scorebook... and in MANY BOO situations, you have exactly that - a scoresheet that both marks an out to a batting spot and then allows it to bat again.

AUS (another one I'm loath to disagree with!), what RULE tells you that B3 doesn't bat next in ASA in the inning AFTER BOO happened? And what does the clarification mean if that's true?

AtlUmpSteve Tue May 25, 2010 04:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 678508)
There are no rules I'm aware of that depend on how something looks in the scorebook... and in MANY BOO situations, you have exactly that - a scoresheet that both marks an out to a batting spot and then allows it to bat again.

AUS (another one I'm loath to disagree with!), what RULE tells you that B3 doesn't bat next in ASA in the inning AFTER BOO happened? And what does the clarification mean if that's true?
I admit I had forgotten about that "clarification"; it makes no sense to me. Frankly, I think it is wrong, but it comes from the official source.

Exact same play as the "clarification" with no outs, and B9 bats with two outs. So, how can it be correct, be logical, or even make sense that B8 leads off the next inning in the same play with one out?

Oh well, I must be wrong.

Dakota Tue May 25, 2010 04:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 678508)
...And what does the clarification mean if that's true?
It apparently means that another clarification is required! ;)

greymule Tue May 25, 2010 05:11pm
it makes no sense to me

me, either

Well, just add it to the pile of rules that make no sense, like the one that allows the offense to benefit by committing deliberate interference.

IRISHMAFIA Tue May 25, 2010 06:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 678510)

Oh well, I must be wrong.
'bout time you got back in the game.:cool:

This is one of those things that is not supposed to happen in a game. It used to be so simple and then they decided to keep the outs. That was a good thing and I had the rule applied in my first game of that year. Two batters, three outs. Gotta love it.

But then things like this came about. Personally, not having the batter which already made an out bat again makes complete sense. The player had the chance and failed to reach base safely, same as the batter who had their opportunity to bat and did reach base safely.

So I'm sort of curious as to why anyone would think a player should get a second opportunity to achieve success, or failure just because someone on their team (maybe even themself) screwed up.

MD Longhorn Tue May 25, 2010 08:08pm
Honestly, none of this was about what SHOULD be.. just what is.

Personally, I think that if someone bats out of order, their at bat should go away... completely... including their out or peripheral outs - we should add an out to the offense for the screw up, and the MISSING batter --- the original PROPER batter, should be up to bat. Especially for youth ball. MOST of the time the screwup is not the kid's fault, yet that's the one kid that misses out on batting.

Once you get to HS age, I think Fed has it right, as players that age should be able to follow a lineup regardless of coaching screw ups, and players that age can live with missing an at bat.

IRISHMAFIA Tue May 25, 2010 09:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mbcrowder (Post 678547)
Honestly, none of this was about what SHOULD be.. just what is.

Personally, I think that if someone bats out of order, their at bat should go away... completely... including their out or peripheral outs - we should add an out to the offense for the screw up, and the MISSING batter --- the original PROPER batter, should be up to bat. Especially for youth ball. MOST of the time the screwup is not the kid's fault, yet that's the one kid that misses out on batting.

Once you get to HS age, I think Fed has it right, as players that age should be able to follow a lineup regardless of coaching screw ups, and players that age can live with missing an at bat.
What is the excuse when adults BOO? Or NCAA? Or high-level JO ball?
Who cares why it is BOO? Here's a line-up. Find your name and bat after the player whose name is above yours. Failure to read at a 3rd grade level is not an acceptable excuse for screwing up the batting order. Sorry, no sympathy from me, It is their team and their game and their problem.

And what about the other team? People tend to forget there are two teams out there. Why should the defense be denied of the outs which THEY earned by executing a play properly? It isn't their fault the wrong batter hit into an out.


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