Getting the call right
 

There's no specific play here, and I'm just a fan who's interested in the answer.

There's been a couple posts recently about "backing up your partner". It SEEMS like the thought process is to not say anything if you see a wrong call made, sometimes even if questioned by a coach. Now, maybe that's the way the rules are set up.

But I don't understand why the rules are set up that way. Let's be honest... EVERYONE makes mistakes at times. Why not be able to correct that mistake? It happens in football... one official sees a catch, but another official (with a different angle) saw the receivers foot out of bounds. They get together and make the right call (most of the time).

What's strange is there's at least one instance a PU will ask a BU what he saw... a check swing. So why not do the same on some "bang bang" plays?

I'm trying to just start a discussion, not an argument, I swear.:D

It depends on many factors
 

There are a lot of factors that an umpire uses to decide if he/she will go for help.

1. Each umpire has a particular set of responsibilities. Some are shared, but others are the sole perogative of the umpire who made the call. These responsiblities are listed in the umpires manual.

2. No umpire can override another umpire in making decisions that require a judgment call. This too is by instruction per the manual. Now, if an umpire is misapplying a rule, we can and should get together to make sure the rule is applied correctly. However, that is not overruling another umpire. An example would be allowing a batter to continue batting when they bunted a ball foul with 2 strikes. This would be setting aside a rule and should not be allowed.

3. Umpires should never respond to questions by coaches, players or fans that question another umpires call. If asked directly, the umpire should simply direct the coach/player to the umpire who made the call. That umpire can then decide if they need to go for help.

4. The umpire who made the call will usually not go for help on a judgment call. The reason being is that who is to say the other umpires judgment is better. Especially if the other umpire is much further away and has a different angle, which is often the case. Remember, the other umpire has other responsibilities and those responsibilities may put them in a position with a worse angle and distance to the play.

5. If the coach who is asking for help suggests to the umpire that he may have had a bad angle or there was a pulled foot or bobbled ball, then most umpires will go for help on that type of situation. Anytime a coach suggests that the other umpire may have additional information, most umpires will go for help on that.

6. If the coach/player has been complaining about every call and asking for help on every call, then at some point an umpire is probably going to stop going for help. Coaches need to pick their spots.

In your football example, I bet it is allowed because each official has a different set of responsibilities and they get together to get it right because that is part of the mechanics. I doubt you will see the Referee at the 50 yard line call a pass at the 10 yard incomplete when the covering official is right there making the call.

Why is the judgment of the plate umpire who may be 60 feet away better than the umpire who is 15 feet away?

And if the umpire is so arrogant that he/she refuses to go for help, you can bet that he/she won't be getting many more assignments.

There is some amount of "stand by your partner" involved, but the rules of softball are set up to clearly delineate who is responsible for which call in order to prevent double calls. The LAST thing you want is to have one umpire calling safe while the other is calling out.

An umpire who is really worth his/her salt will go to his/her partner if they believe that there was an aspect of the play that they honestly missed. If I have a crappy angle on a possible pulled foot, I will definitely ask my partner. However, deciding whether or not to go to one's partner is completely up to the umpire whose call it is.

Regardless, in order for calls to be made properly, we must have some segregation of duties between umpires. There MUST be organization on the field, or else we end up with chaos.

Let's not ignore that angle is more important than distance. That is the most common reason for getting help and for "changed" calls.

I agree
 

However, it is generally taught that you don't go for help on judgement calls. It is still one umpires judgment vs anothers. Who's to say the other umpire is correct? I agree we should give up distance for angle and if a coach suggest to me that my partner may have had a different angle, I'm going to my partner for help. But if it's "I think you blew that call. The runner beat the ball. Can you go for help?". Now it's a purely a judgment call and my partner's judgment may not be any better than mine.

Part of the beauty of the game is the fact that an umpire may make the same call 8 out of 10 times, but there is still those two times that he/she would have gone the other way. Part of the mechanics of the game is for the players to learn these things and talk with their teammates and adjust. When players get to this level its truly a great game to participate as an umpire.

That is not being said. What is being said is there there are priorities and procedures in place to accommodate possible errors.That is football, where both feet in play means it is a good catch on a live ball, but has no bearing in baseball or softball. The point is those officials are given areas and prescribed mechanics to be in position to make those calls. Areas do overlap.

Yeah, when asked to do so. The BU is specifically directed to not respond to anyone other than the PU. They do as I just described :D

What makes you think the other umpire is going to have a better view and the this view is more accurate? What happens when this umpire comes running up saying, "no, no, no, the foot was in there, safe", when in fact that umpire did not see F3 tag the runner's hand on the other side of the body?

Umpire mechanics are not something someone dropped from a high window of an ivy-covered tower. They have been worked, developed, tested, worked, tweaked, tested, worked, etc.

If you lurked here, and paid attention, you have read the instances when players and coaches ask for an "appeal" (intentional misuse) of a play to another umpire. Guarantee, games will end due to lack of players more often than now because they WILL be more confrontational on the field and WILL NOT shut up if they do not get their way.

There are certain methods and procedure that affect everything you do in life, from the manner in which you dress yourself to the manner in which you approach a customer or boss.

Would you like to know how many times we have all had players or coaches come out, scream and holler, jump up and down, put on a nice little show, but never tell me why they thought I missed a call or asked me to check with my partner. Can you imagine how contentious things would become if umpires got involved in eash other's call every time someone complained?

Like you said, we all make mistakes and there is a prescribed method to approach the situation. Ever play in a tournament that every player was an umpire? No, really, we used to have a regional umpire tournament that to play, you had to be a registered ASA umpire in your local association. It was fun, but as the umpire, you did not want to screw up. Luckily, we knew how and when to approach things so, at least with us, it did not get out of control. I have, however, seen games get out of control simply because umpires have tried to be accommodating to teams (GAGA-go along to get along).

Do I go for help every time I'm asked? Nope. I will go every time there is something that I could have possibly missed and my partner may have had a better view or more information that could help.

Too late to make excuses now, Bubba! ;):D

Actually, I'm not assuming the other ump has a better view. Honestly, I understand the other umpire may have been watching another runner(?) or their specific area of responsibility. Using your example but reversed, what if the BU (just assuming) made the 'Safe' call (based on angle, position, whatever), but the PU saw something different (the tag the BU couldn't see) because the BU was blocked by a body.

I have been lurking here and TRYING to pay attention. I'm a strange one... I like watching behind the scenes and seeing how (and sometimes later finding out the WHY) things are done.

I'm sure... those are some of the more entertaining posts that I read. :D

Yea, I don't know a good way to even suggest implementing an "override".

Now I'm curious... when do you ask your partner? Before or after a call?

:p

In that case, we know when we got blocked, and we still have to make an initial call. If we have enough doubt about our call, we go to our partners IF we think they may have seen the play and had any kind of angle on it. Good umpires can read each other well enough to know if the other has nothing more to offer.

Good time to ask questions. :)

We get a good chuckle out of 'em, too! :D

There really is none, and the rule book specifically states that no umpire "overrides" another, nor shall any umpire even try to override another. My call is my call, yours is yours. This separation of duties helps to keep order on the field.

It really depends upon the situation and sometimes even the UIC we're working for.

Never before. If I am that blocked that I cannot make a call based on what I could not see, I "give up" the call to my partner. That is not that same as going for help. Once I give up the call, I have no input in the decision making process. As an umpire, you try to recognize the possibility of being blocked-out and adjust, but sometimes you just cannot predict the movement of the fielders in time to make the appropriate adjustments.

If I see the play, I make the call based upon my observations. If there was a pulled foot or any other "issues", I do not assume something happened, I, well my brain makes the call based on what my eyes thought they saw.

Enter the coach. If I believe his argument that something occurred which I could not see, I will go to my partner in a heartbeat. If I am in position to see the entire play and/or there is no possibility my partner had a better view, I'm declining the request.

I understand there is no "overrule" in the book currently. I'm taking my hypothetical to an extreme and trying to figure out a good way to do one. There's probably not, but it never hurts to ask, right?;)

I know I'm throwing a lot of hypotheticals in, and I apologize. I'm just trying to picture this all. Say you're blocked from a call. If I understand you correctly, you don't make a call at all, but let your partner make the call. What if they were focused somewhere else?

I hope I'm not making anyone upset. I'm just trying to educate myself more in the sport.

I was not implying we should go for help anytime a partner might have a better angle. Just making the point that when we do, that is usually the reason and, unless a partner is extremely near-sighted, we all can see a play from 60 - 90 feet away, so angle is more important.

Actually had a coach ask my BU partner to ask me because of better angle (he thought) on a play at 2nd. :cool: No matter, BU had it covered very well and correctly refused the request.

Nope, never hurts to ask. Umpiring is one of those things that, I think, is a great big mystery to most people. If you really want some good insight into the mindset of umpires, read Bruce Weber's As They See 'Em: A Fan's Travels in the Land of Umpires. GREAT book. Available here from Amazon.

One of my all-time favorite quotes on a softball field. PU in a 3-ump JUCO game changed his call on a play at the plate after the three of us got together. Coach comes out yelling, "You can't let them overrule you!" PU calmly says, "They didn't overrule me Coach. They offered me a veritable plethora of information which I did not previously possess." Coach slowly walked back to the dugout. :cool:

THAT'S what I'm talking about. So is that possible? Did the PU ask for his partners, or did they know they had extra information and go to the PU on their own?

Well, that is why there are mechanics. I know where my partner is supposed to be and what his/her duties are on every play.....in a perfect world.

Since we do not live in a perfect world, I look first before going to a partner. If s/he is not available, I have to evaluate the entire situation and render a call.

Maybe we haven't been clear enough, but the ONLY WAY this can happen on a judgment call is if the calling official (in this the PU) asks his partner(s) if they have additional information. It is a RULE that other umpires may not volunteer information to seek to change a call.

ASA 10-3.B "Under no circumstances will any umpire seek to reverse a decision made by an associate ...... unless asked to do so."

NFHS 10-1-4 "No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire's decision unless asked by the one making it."

NCAA 15-2-h "... however the final decision shall rest with the umpire ... who requests the opinion of the other umpire(s)."

No cover up, no conspiracy, no "backing"; it is absolutely against the rules to offer a differing opinion unless asked by the calling umpire.

But why? Why should that be in the rules? If the official who didn't make the call thinks they have "material information", why couldn't there be a "meeting of the minds"?

A follow up situation... have your partners ever gotten a call "wrong" (not intentionally) but since a coach didn't question the call (or do so properly) your extra information wasn't added?

Because then it looks like overruling. Besides that making call's ain't a thing of getting together with tea and coffee and then deside what the call should be.
Keep the speed into the game, do slow it down just for getting together and make a call. The umpire responsible makes the call, if he needs help; he's gotta go for it

Yes, I've been in that situation. After the game in our dressingroom we discussed what happened and what I saw. What the call with that extra info should have been and how it could have effected the game. No hard feelings between me and my partner. This happens and we have to deal with it.
If a runner misses a base, I saw it, DC ain't appealing then we don't have an out!

YOU have NOT been "LISTENING"! Everyone makes a bad or wrong call BUT they make the call!

If YOU,not your partners, but YOU think YOU need more infor for whatever reason, such as a coach asking you to get help or because you think there might have been a pulled foot, then YOU go for help.

There has been times when I had a different "look" at my partner's call and from where I was it looked like he was wrong, but HE did not come to me so we went with his call.

Anytime there is judgment, there will be different points of view, BUT the only one that counts is the one by the calling official.:D

Sam It has been said a few times in this post the umpire have certain responsibilities. So think about it I am the BU making a close call at 1st (my call). I call her safe. The D coach comes running out and does not ask if the foot was pulled (in this case it was not), but to tell me she was out and I need to go to my partner for help. Now let's say I am a rookie and I go to my partner (also a rookie) and he tells me that he had her out. So I change my call. Oy Vey :eek:

What do you think the O Coach is going to do? What question might he/she ask? How do I justify changing my call? Why is the PUs judgment (running down the line) any better than mine?

So come out with the right questions. Did she pull her foot? Did F4 run right in front of you block your sight so you had to call her safe? Just think of a question to ask that will justify the blue going to his/her partner for help. It is that easy. Otherwise stay in your dugout and passively tell the blue what you thought of the call by telling your players you thought she was out.

Sam, we have gotten to the point where you are going to "what if" and "how come, why" us until you get the answer you want. That isn't going to happen. You need to get into umpiring, attend a few clinics, a school and then get back to us.

He was in good position (1B line extended), but the runner slid toward the fair territory side of the plate and ended up blocked. F2 dropped the ball as she made the tag and scooped it back up quickly. He called the runner out, but quickly "invited" us to get together when the offense (in the 1B dugout) went crazy.

Sam... breathe deep..... breathe again..and pay CAREFUL attention to what whitey :D just said.....yah..we have ALL screwed up calls that went uncorrected. Seems like its time for you to learn the WHY.

I wanted to let you know I'm done with the thread. Thank you all for your input.

http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a41/brotz13/whitey.jpg

:confused::confused:

Yeah, I have a beard now, but you wouldn't catch me wearing that Yankees stuff. Ain't the same team.

Meanwhile, Dave, here I am sitting in one of these signature white rockers at CLT and it is awfully chilly and overcast. I thought this was the south.

Amen to that...

Yeah, I'll see what I can do. Might make the hamsters that generate our electricity run a little faster down here. ;)

It's been cool (okay cold) in the mornings and hot in the afternoons for several days. I'm not sure what's up. I just hope it's clear down in Summerville today.

Yah, well I was hoping for a little warmth before heading over to the Ozarks where it is supposed to be a bit on the brisk side in the mornings.

Actually, last night was pretty nice. Wife and I left the windows open and didn't have to turn on the heat or AC. It was quite comfortable. :)

And what good does that do me, Mr. Peabody?:confused: Not like I have a WayBack Machine that will allow me to enjoy the evening :rolleyes::D

Well, not to worry, I'll be leaving in about 90 minutes, so you can bet by 11:00-11:30 it will be clear with a warm sun shining brightly.

I thought Steve was "Whitey"?!?! :confused:

But don't we all look alike to .....people that tall? :cool:

And that normally would be me, when the Big Dawg is talking. But, you know, Mike and I could be interchangable in this case.:):D

You all look alike....:D

...in the dark. :)

Then again, so does everyone.

No, no, we all look like Mexicans in the dark. Get with it.

¡Ay dios mio!

i am taking this one.

I borrowed it from Fredeaux, everyone else is welcome to it! :cool: