Courtesy runner in top of the 1st
 

FED rules. After doing quite a bit of research on this one, I can see both sides on this. What say you?

SITUATION:
At the pre-game conference, lineups for both teams are accepted as official. The visitors have a DP hitting for their FLEX who's pitching. Before the end of the pregame conference, but after the lineups have been accepted as official, the visiting manager indicates she wishes to bring her DP in to play defense as pitcher. If the DP (who's now the pitcher) reaches base in the 1st inning, is she allowed a courtesy runner?

Yes, when the DP is reported as the pitcher, she becomes the listed pitcher, which is the requirement in the top of the first.
The only constraint is facing one batter in the bottom of the inning.

What is the "other side"?

The other side is the interpretation we have.

The wording listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire during the pre-game meeting.

In this case we do not allow any such change in the pitcher or catcher originally listed until after they have faced the first batter in the bottom of the first inning. Therefore in the OP, the DP remains the DP for the top of the first inning.

I have not seen any interp that says "listed on the line-up means the line-up presented and accepted by the umpire".
I have not seen any interp that says the DP may not replace the FLEX in the top of the first. The "listed pitcher" rule is about CR and applies to whoever would be eligible for a CR in the top of the first. In the OP, that is the player listed as DP and pitcher.

All of this can be handled by not allowing "future" substitutions. If the coach wants his DP to play defense for his flex, then he should inform the umpire when his team moves to defense.

What if you were to allow such a substitution, and allow a courtesy runner for the "future pitcher" and then the coach turns around and reenters his flex to start the bottom of the inning? Then you've just allowed a courtesy runner for a regular batter.

I agree with those that say the line up is official as accepted during pregame conference. The pitcher for the visiting team who is listed in the line up must pitch in the bottom of the inning, and has the right to a courtesy runner in the top of the inning.

You don't allow the re-entry. Fed rule 8-9-2.

I don't believe there's a requirement in FED that the pitcher listed is required to face a batter. Considering that, just because the coach says they are planning to have the DP pitch, what is to stop the DP in the bottom half of the first inning from just going to the F9 position and having the player listed as F9 start the game pitching.

In organizations where the pitcher listed on the line-up is required to face a batter, I don't think the Flex can leave until she faces said batter.

I don't see how a courtesy runner would be legal either way.

NFHS requires the listed pitcher and catcher from the visitors face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning. 8.9.2 (Page 69 of 2010 Rule Book)

The points raised in this thread present the sides of the argument to which I was referring.

Of course, the reason the coach is presenting the lineup at the pre-game meeting is so he/she has the DP/FLEX option to use. Obviously, he/she is wanting her good hitting pitcher (DP) to continue in the event the starting pitcher needs to be relived by her weaker hitting FLEX.

I subscribe to the "projected substitution" theory. The DP won't enter as the pitcher until the bottom of the 1st and the substitution shouldn't be accepted until the team is on defense.

However, since the FLEX is listed as the starting pitcher, she won't bat and never require a CR since she isn't playing offense. The only requirement is the starting pitcher faces the first batter for purposes of the CR rule. If she's not playing offense and would never use a CR, does this requirement apply to a starting pitcher who is a FLEX? There is no requirement that the home team's starting pitcher (as listed on the lineup) be required to face the first batter.

Of course, there's no case book play which offers a ruling.

The OP is not a future or projected substitution. Future or projected substitution are cases where a sub will replace a player who will still participate in some manner before the sub takes over.

The replacement of FLEX by DP is proper, can be done immediately after lineup is accepted or any other time. Per the rule cites by Tom & Mike, the DP player can not be replaced on defense until facing a batter.

Of course, that rule is meant to apply to the listed pitcher when she bats in the top of first (not subs after that), and if I were rules maker, maybe only if a CR is used.

I have a tangent, semi-hijack about this for later.

For those who have said there is no rule requiring the pitcher to face one batter, there IS a rule that requires the pitcher or catcher to face the first batter in the bottom of the 1st inning (by context, since this is in the Courtesy Runner rule, I assume this rule applies only if either player used a courtesy runner in the top of the first inning... otherwise, lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal. But, strictly speaking, the rule does not say that.)

Rule 8-9

I read the rule regarding facing one batter differently. 3-6-d (2009 book) states a player may be substituted for at any time. My interp is that only when a player is courtesy ran for in the top of the first must they face one batter in the bottom of the inning- this is why the catcher is included in that rule and why it is listed in the courtesy runner section.

Think about the reasoning. Two really good teams with stud pitchers going at it.(a game in which one run would be huge) Visiting team has a big hitter who cannot run listed as catcher she gets on in the top of first and is run for with a courtesy runner who is fast. Then after top of 1 regular catcher is substituted in for the original catcher.

The Starting pitcher being listed as DP and the flex listed as the P (who does not throw a P) has been a long used strategic move (Candrea has used it often) and is legal and the player listed as P does not have to throw a pitch I say.

Why is the "lineup card maneuver described in the OP is illegal", when DP for FLEX is a legal replacement and the DP player is the listed pitcher before she or anyone bats?

This discussion is not about NCAA.

Yes I know, did not figure if I threw out a local High School Coach's name anyone would know who I was referring to.

If the rule regarding the battery facing the first batter in the bottom of the inning was a general rule (i.e. whether or not a CR is used), then DP cannot replace FLEX until FLEX faces one batter. I was just making an editorial comment (i.e. a comment on an editorial issue with the book). The rule (8-9-2) merely has the statement "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; both must face at least the first batter on defense." I would modify the statement as: "In the top of the first inning only, the pitcher and catcher are identified as those players listed on the lineup as the pitcher and catcher; if either uses a CR in the top of the inning, that player must face at least the first batter on defense." However, as I said, the context of the rule (being in the CR rule) implies that.

Agree, and you and I would certainly re-word the rule, but what are you saying would be illegal?

If the FLEX (the pitcher on the submitted lineup) must face the first batter in the bottom of the inning, then she cannot be replaced before she does that, so the maneuver where the DP/FLEX is submitted on the lineup (with FLEX as F1) and then immediately the coach drops down to 9 players would be illegal. He could not drop down to 9 players until FLEX has faced the first batter. I don't agree that this is the proper reading of the rule, but literally it could be read that way.

The rule just says listed pitcher, not original listed pitcher, so that change before the player bats, would be legal. IMO :cool:
One of those "if it doesn't say so" rules.

I guess I still don't understand why the OP is not a projected substitution if made when the team is on offense.

Visiting team has DP/Flex on the submitted line-up. The Flex is listed as the pitcher (and should pitch in the bottom of the inning). The DP is the one who is batting. The coach can't just say, "Oh by the way, the DP will enter for the Flex at the bottom of this inning and will pitch, so I want a courtesy runner for her now." The team is not on defense, and there is no substitution made until the DP enters for the Flex on defense. If the substitution is reported at the beginning of the bottom of the inning, then the DP would not have needed a courtesy runner because she would not be on the line-up card as the "pitcher."

A projected substitution is one that the coach can't actually make now; i.e. one that if you note it on the line up card, your lineup card now shows the future lineup instead of the present one.

For example, if a coach enters two pinch hitters and then wants to re-enter his starter if the first pinch hitter gets on base. You can take both pinch hitters (you don't have to wait until each comes to bat), but you can't take the re-entry yet since that is a projected sub.

In the OP, you can take the entry of DP for FLEX, and FLEX has now left the game. It really doesn't matter that the team is not yet on defense; the change can be noted on the lineup without something else happening first.

Thanks (and to Dakota.) After reading the rule many times, I had missed that.

I've always had issue with the fact that the term "projected substitution" was not defined.

Aside from NCAA, (which only addresses projected re-entries), do any of the other rule sets have any language that specifically addresses the term "projected substitution" (which is certainly a more all encompassing phrase the "projected re-entries")?

NCAA Substitute Player 8.5.1.2
A coach of the team making the substitution shall immediately notify the plate umpire at the time a substitute enters the game. Projected re-entries are not allowed.

Does anyone have a problem with this explanation?

"Future or projected substitutions are cases where a sub will replace a player who will still participate in some manner before the sub takes over. "

e.g.,
- the obvious re-rentry prediction
- #7 will replace #12 in the field, but #12 will bat this inning
- #30 will bat for #18 when we get up, but #18 will play the field this inning
- etc.

Any change that can occur right away is therefore not projected or future. That includes reporting subs for the next two batters at the same time, and DP/FLEX maneuvers; as long as the replaced player actually leaves the game.

I don't have a problem with that explaination, at all. I just wish it was expressly defined in the rulebook. (And as you have defined it would be just fine, Cecil.) ;)

I really don't see the need. When you take a change, you make the change. Why would it be necessary to provide extraneous explanation for something that isn't supposed to be available to begin.

Of course, you could always go this route:

Coach: 24 is going to hit for 13. 13 will re-enter.
Umpire: Coach, give me the change when it happens.
Coach: I just did.
Umpire: Fine, coach. 24 is back in the game and 13 has used one of their two entries into the game. Any other players you would like to waste?
Coach: But...uh...no...I didn't.....what?
Umpire: Thanks, Coach, the dugout is that way.

Would be interested to see the method used to keep track of that, (it's not going to happen now, but later) on a line up card.