When to overrule
 

Runners on 2nd and 3rd 1 out. 2 man crew high school game. Base ump is sitting behind SS. Ground ball to F6 throw is wide to F3 and F3 pulls her foot to make the catch. Base umpire calls out. From Base umpires view (almost 90 feet away and bad angle) no way to see foot pulled. Plate umpire stares at 1B coach after play looking like a cat who ate a canary dying for someone to ask what he saw.

Now IMO what should have happened is that the OC should have asked the Base umpire to check with his partner to see if his partner saw the foot pulled.

My question is at what threshold should the PU speak up to get the call right without being asked. It's no shame on the BU he missed the call, BU was in a lousy position because of the lead runners, to see the pulled foot.

I MIGHT, (and this would depend on who my partner was) just MIGHT ask my partner about it after the game in the parking lot.

I WILL talk to my partner about it anytime (s)he asks, but away from coaches hearing range.

If I'm the BU? I'd hope the PU's life insurance is paid up before he pulls something like that on me.

Never, ever, EVER "overrule" another umpire. Read ASA 10-3-B.

I will bludgeon my partner in the parking lot if he attempts to throw me under the bus like that. If I need his help, I will ask for it.

http://www.corbisimages.com/images/6...3/U1631656.jpg

Not long after I started I had a play like this where I was PU. I did the same thing this PU did of staring down there not believing what I had seen. I realized that it didn't make any sense to stand there and hustled back to my position. I felt bad about it afterward because had anybody in the park not been busy yelling at my partner about his call, they might have seen me as selling him up the river and I've made it a point not to do it since. I'd recommend the same for the PU in your scenario. [My partner was a solid umpire who happily came to me about the call once the coach asked him and we got it right.]
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Vaporizer television

This exact situation happened to me last year. How it ended up for us:

I'm PU, the offense's head coach was sitting on a bucket on the third base side looking right down the line at the play. He sees the pulled foot. After BU had called the out and the play had ended, the coach calmly called time, walked out to me, and asked if I had seen a pulled foot. I explained "Coach, you have to go to BU and request that he ask for help. If he concurs, we will discuss it." The coach calmly walks to the BU, asks him to go for help. BU walks over to me and asks if I saw a pulled foot. I said that I had. My BU says with a nod "Ok then" and announces that the runner will be put back on first base.

I tell you what, the **** hit the fan on the defense's side, but we got the call right.

late in a game, I was BU when my experienced PU partner made a safe call at home on a force that was clearly on the plate for an out. two players converged and I quickly moved towards the plate to help my partner with the players, but before I got there, my partner was threaten ejection, so both players moved away, and I was surprised that he was standing firm on staying with his call, and never asked me for help. I had a plain, not shocked face on.

after the game, he admitted that he had a brain fart, and felt bad since his call affected the outcome of the game. perhaps I didn't move in fast enuff to help clear players, so that might be my regret. but when you see players converging on your partner, move in quickly to help clear your partner some space. partners can think and regain thoughts better when there is breathing room.

NEVER.
NCASAump already gave you ASA's position on the subject....I'll add:

PONY Rule 11 Sec.6(a)
NCAA 15.9.2

Why would the PU stare at a coach knowing that if s/he raises the issue, he will lose one of the forty-two?

Positioning in Europe...
 

Dear fellows oversees,

I know: it's your game, we got it from you and we shall not change it.
However considder this.

In the OP is written BU is in C, with 2nd and 3th ocupied. Now BU ALWAYS have a bad angle on 1st.:mad:
That's why we, at least in the Neth.'s, are in B in this situation. Now we only have a difficult job to do on a pick-off on 3rd. There are a lot less calls on 3rd than on 1st in this situation. A matter of math...

Best of all is a 3-umpire crew!:D

This situation is standard at all of my pregame talks, and in 100 conversations, it's been 50/50, and I'm fine either way as long as we're on the same page:

My preference is, BU make the out call if the ball beats the runner, then if OC has an issue, BU asks PU if he saw a pulled foot.

I was originally taught to first point to my PU and ask "Did she hold the bag", then make my call. I just never liked that mechanic, and prefer the other way.

I, also was taught to ask your partner first before making the call and this is the method I prefer. I know that Mike doesn't like it, but I have never worked with him either! :)

If you choose to do this, it must be done judiciously, as your PU partner will have other responsibilities and there may be other runners moving around second and third base. Almost all of the umpires that I work with have been trained to hold near the plate to see the play at first before releasing to third for any potential call there. However, I have seen some PUs immediately release to third when the ball is hit and are not in any position to offer help. Most of the time, any other runners will have advanced one base or be holding at a base since the ball has remained in the infield on this play and the PU will be able to help.

As stated, there is no threshold. One umpire should never intervene on his partner's call. Since you asked about high school, NFHS 10-1-4, "No umpire shall criticize or interfere with another umpire’s decision unless asked by the one making it." The look you describe all by itself would seem to come awfully close to violating this.

In situations like this, the coaching staff bears some responsibility for ensuring that the call is correct. An experienced coach understands not just the rules, but also the limitations of the 2 umpire system. If one of the offensive coaches saw the pulled foot, he should not be fuming or yelling or stomping, etc. He should merely be asking the BU to go for help to the PU since the foot was pulled. It shouldn't require any kind of "look" from the PU, either. If the OC did not ask, shame on him.

Andy,

Speaking ASA and from JJ, if a runner is on second base and a ball is hit to the infielder with the first throw going to 1b, the plate umpire exits to the left and straight up the line with his/her head on a swivel to look at first. Given that you have done Men's B and A and open are next, there is a chance JJ will be your UIC . . .

Ron

That's because if your partner cannot help you, and since you asked,
that means you are not sure you saw an out. And if you didn't see an out, how are you going to call it if your partner isn't available to help?

Too many things can go wrong with a hesitation and waiting for help that may not be there. After all, if there are any other runners, his responsibility AND priority must be them.

Excellent thing to do. It usually is in mine.

We had this above play tonight but we had not talked about it. My partner was someone I have called with often and we kind of skimped on the pre-game. I was PU and think I did what my partner was expecting... as soon as the play happened, he just pointed at first base and looked straight at me. I was near home.

I wasn't 100% sure what he was asking so I just looked back at him. It seemed like a long time, but actually was probably just a second or so, maybe even just a ½ second. He didn't ask anything and just kept pointing at the bag and looking at me. (Our checked swing appeal mechanic is to always verbalize "Did she go?" Maybe I should have said, "What? You talkin' to me?" ;) )

Even though he didn't verbalize the question, I gave the swiping "pulled her foot" motion and then he gave the safe signal. It worked well, but we should have been prepared by discussing it in the pregame.

Andy, for what it is worth, I have a problem with any "standard" mechanic which needs to be done judiciously. It is either the standard mechanic (to be done whenever that situation arises), or NOT the standard mechanic.

If it has that many holes that it can't or shouldn't be used sometimes, then it shouldn't be the standard.

Mike, isn't that a question of how you ask?
Coming from the same continent as DutchAlex, but a different country, we established the following for experianced crews (!):
In a sit, like the one in the OP, the BU should ask: "Did you see her pull the foot?"
That would enable the PU to answer "No!" in a case (s)he didn't look or judges the foot was not pulled. And "Yes" if (s)he saw it.

I don't think it means I did not see an out. It means from what I could see I had an out, but I might have missed one information and I will ask for it. Afterwards the BU will make the call.

But I guess our coaches are different from yours :cool: And it is more family like here in Germany since Softball is not quite as big as in the US :(

But in general I agree that the PU should NEVER overrule!
How should the PU know, that the BU is missing the information and not just had a different judgment on that situation? It might be easy writing down obvious Situations but in real life it is more complex!

Raoul

Greetings, mach3!

An umpire asking another umpire for help on a call is absolutely acceptable and happens all the time. It's perfectly normal for one umpire to seek out that information.

However, when a particular play is completely my call, it's inappropriate for another umpire to attempt to push their call and attempt to "overrule" me. In fact, the rules prohibit this.

If it's my call and I need help, I'll ask for it. Otherwise, all other umpires should keep their opinions to themselves.

Make sense? :)

If you have to ask, that means you did not see an out, so how are you going to call an out if your partner has no answer or wasn't there? By asking, you have effectively questioned your own judgment.

Then if all the information you have indicates an out, call it. BTW, while you and your partner are having this nice conversation, who is covering the play at 3B or home? Just because there may be a question doesn't mean the players stop playing.

@NCASA Ump: No disagreement. My Call, I CAN go for help but if not the call is my business and I have to live with it. And when it comes down to it my partner is there to help my to to show me off.

@IRISHMAFIA: Yes all, Information that I have indicates the out. But I am not sure if she lost contact during her stretch (due to the angle I had) AND the situation allows me to ask before I rule, why shouldn't I try to get the information my partner might have and include it into my call? Why should I wait for the coach to yell at me, ask for my partners information, turn the call and have the other coach in face?
Of course if my partner is busy or has no other information, I have to with what I got.

But I can see where you coming from. And we only have experienced Umps doing this and crews that are comfortable with it.

Raoul

Maybe I should have worded my post differently. I understand rule prohibits the PU to overrule. But would a PU call time and discuss with BU what he saw so in an effort to get the call right?

I guess I see basketball/football refs do this all the time, get together, confer, try to get it right. IMO if your paying a "team" of officials every set of eyes has value. It's interesting to find out that this seems to be a situation for softball where it is more important to most to handle it procedurally correct than get the call right. (because umpires seem to feel handling it prodedurally correct is getting it right, while most laymen would feel that F3 catching the ball off the bag is not an out)

Part of the "procedure" as you put it involves the coaches. The OC needs to request time and tell the BU that he saw a pulled foot and request that the BU confer with his partner. That is how the call is gotten "right."

good one, stick with the out call in this case. You've got one of the 42 you need. I had a BU call a double play out at 1st where it was quite obvious the foot was pulled. I didn't say a word. He came up to me and said he had interference at 2nd on the runner from 1st and the batter-runner should be out anyways. He asked me if the 1B was on the bag. I told him the 1B wasn't on the bag and that was it, and told him he could do whatever he wanted with the info I gave him. He ended up calling the batter-runner safe at 1st, despite the interference at 2nd. Didn't end up mattering since the next guy lined into a double play to end the inning.
Umpires have to stick together on the field, sometimes, if a coach has been jumping on my partner all day and my partner comes to me for help, i'll agree with my partner's call even if I saw differently, partly to support my partner and partly to draw the coach's wrath onto me and off of my partner...

here's my theory of what to do if two umpires both make a call at a base.
1. both call out, obvious: stick with the out
2. one calls safe, one calls out: stick with the out call
3. both call safe, screw it, call the runner out :D

Nope, that's not right.

ergo, ego.

Agreed, not right at all. You see something differently than your partner, be honest and tell your partner. Otherwise, you both have the call wrong (of course then the coach would be right to be upset with you).

If a coach has been jumping on my partner all day I trust my partner to take care of business if the coach has gotten out of hand.

Agreed. If such a conference results in the call being changed, two things happen. One, the coach whose team now benefits from the call will usually pipe down and be pleased with the call and will often appreciate the fact that it was handled properly. Two, the other coach may get upset, but it's usually not as bad. After all, you've already gone to your partner and discussed the play. What more is there to discuss?

Not to say coaches always share that logic (or any at all, for that matter), but it's nice to live in that dream world for a while. :D

what is NOT right?

in that picture, who's call are YOU gonna agree or disagree? once a call is decided by your crew, are you not gonna stick by your crew or you gonna throw your own under the bus and decide FOR and trump your crew, and let the disparaged coach work you against your crew?

ERGO, EGO.

If you do not understand an umpire consulting a partner and keeping/changing a call based on information obtained; :rolleyes: I hope you do not live close enough to ever be my partner. :(

I understand his comment, and I understand those that agree with him regardless.

We (you and me) once had a teacher in the assn. He umpired for vacation money. My first year in the assn, I redlined him as a partner. Told Dan and Bob to never schedule me with him.

Reason was because the two times we got together on a call, he refused to participate.

First time, I went to him on a possible pulled foot. He told me there was a hot mom in the stands and refused to say anything else. The second, he came to me and told me he didn't want any information because in HIS game on HIS field HE wasn't going to change any calls made. Kicker was, he missed a very clear tag, but never really told me what the coach asked.

I don't need a partner on the field that is not going to be a partner on the field.

The biggest issue on when to overrule,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,try to develp the "get it right" idea in your partners heads.:cool:

On a close play, take a look at your partner to see if they have that deer in the headlights look. If they do, casually have a conversaton with them later and encourage them to not be so over run with ego that they won't ask for help.

But like so many said, YOU NEVER OVERRULE.:eek:
You simply give information to your partner to allow them to make the correct ruling.

If you can trust your partner, and that is what you want to develop on the field, don't be afraid to ask for their view. Hopefully that leadership attitude will work for you.

I once had a game where I was in the C slot and had a sweeping tag play at first on the BR. R1 was on 2B.
I knew I had no good view and I a refuse to "guess" and out. R1 had frozen on 3B we had no other base runner concerns or possible plays.
I immediately pointed to my partner and loudly asked "do you have a tag?"

His answer was immediate and clear, "yes, I do"

I made the call, Batter runner is out.

I trusted my partner becuase I knew he was where he was supposed to be, trailing the BR up the line. He trusted me to go to him.

As a result of that particular call, the two most difficult coaches I had seen that year gave no problems from the rest of the season.
They knew we didn't let ego get in the way of the game, we were on top of our areas of responsibility and we worked together.

We got a lot of compliments from the coaches and spectators as well as league officers.
I know, I know..............if you are going to accept the compliments you have to accept their criticisms too.
But it was nice to hear some appreciation from the folks who saw us working together.

If you were in the C, your partner was nowhere near where he should have been if he was trailing the BR.

I was thinking the same thing. With a runner on 3B, that runner may break for home after the infielder releases the throw to 1B. If PU has trailed the BR down the line, he's in for a surprise between the eyes when F3 fires to F2 to get the runner breaking from 3B.

And if he's lucky enough to not get conked with the throw, it might be difficult to make a call from the seat of his pants and facing the wrong direction.

Ok, good point on basic mechanics but we had varied on coverage.
Remember, if you deviate communicate

We did use non-standard mechanics for most of that season because I was recovering from a torn achilles tendon.

how can you "get together" when your partner was not a willing participatant? did you insist on helping "get together" when help was NOT requested by your partner?