do not pitch/"time"/illegal pitch
 

I was doing a community college game today (NCAA rules) when a few incidents of illegal pitching and related issues came up. I'm trying different sources to find an answer and thought I'd post. I'm plate. We have a pitcher who wanted to quick pitch as soon as the batter stepped a foot in the batters box. I learned at the very beginning of the game that I had to keep my hand up with the do not pitch signal until the batter was set and looked at the pitcher. This is where my partner and I had a difference of opinion.

Most of the time as I held one hand up, allowing the batter to get set, the pitcher stood on the plate with hands seperated. When I lowered my hand she would bring her hands together and pitch almost immediately. Although she was still quick I felt that when this happened that she was within the rules. My partner felt differently and called a few illegal pitches.

His contention was that as I gave the one handed do not pitch signal that this signal meant "time" and that when I lowered my hand the pitcher had to keep her hands seperated a little longer, simulate taking a signal, and then pitch. I felt that my one handed hold up play signal was not "time" and that as she stood, hands seperated, during my do not pitch signal that she was indeed taking the signal. She certainly wanted to pitch as soon as I lowered my hand but I felt she was within the rules.

I'm currently looking in various sources for a definitive answer. The CCA umpire manual shows 2 different umpire signals: one for time out/ suspension of play and another for do not pitch. Earlier in the manual (page 130) there is a mention of when to use the "do not pitch " signal. ASA umpire manual also states the two signals/actions as seperate entities. So far that's the only references I can find. Any ideas how you would handled my situation? Any ruleset would be a good start.

I know ASA has no such requirement, and I don't think NCAA does either, but where does it say the pitcher must take the signal AFTER directed to continue/play?

So Irish, do you interpret a "do not pitch" signal in the same way as a "time" signal? That's the crux of the biscuit for me.

You are correct LJ, they are different signals with different meanings. Following your partner's reasoning, the pitcher can make any illegal move other than putting a foreign substance on the ball and not be called for it because, in his mind, your "do not pitch" signal is a complete suspension of play. "Do not pitch" means simply that.

And, as I'm sure you know, a quick pitch is not an illegal pitch provided the pitcher's preliminary requirements are met.

Topper....excellent point. And just to add to your response...a quick pitch is ruled to be "No Pitch."
NCAA 10.9
ASA 6.10 (c)

LJ....Your partner was wrong on this.
Based on your OP, IMO I feel you were handling the sitch correctly from your end as the PU.
Question....did you and your BU cover IP's in your pre-game?

My partner and I have worked together numerous times and I consider him to be one of the top umps I go on the field with. We did not cover this specific situation, but afterwards he said he was calling the hands issue because he thought I was missing something.

LJ...ok I got that. Now my next questions (because I'm not 100% clear from your OP or this reply), are:

1) What did he think it was that you were missing with the hands?
2) What position was he in when he made the IP call?
3) How many times did he make this call?
4) At what point did he discuss with you "what he thought you were missing"?

My partner was in C each time. He made 3 illegal pitch calls from that positon (by the way, I made 2 other unrelated illegal calls at other times in the game. The girl simply didn't know the mechanics). Between innings he asked me if I was going to start calling the illegals, since the hand motions/timings are generally the plate's responsibility. I explained that I did not feel the same way he did and that I felt she was taking the sign when I was holding up the pitcher with a do not pitch signal. We agreed to disagree at that moment. Once again he felt that my do not pitch signal meant "time" and that the pitcher could not simulate taking a pitch when "time was granted.

No, I don't.

Just for clarification sake, While you are holding up the pitcher with the 'do not pitch' signal can the following take place? (ASA rule set)

1) The pitcher place both feet on the rubber, with hands separated, and then bring the hand together. (meaning, once you declare 'ready' , would the pitcher have to 'restart' the preliminary of the pitch or simply continue?)

2) while unlikely, could you have a LBR violation or base runner leaving a bag early prior to the pitch?

TIA

It seems to me that the pause for a sign or simulation is to protect the batter from a "quick pitch". As the batter often also relaxes or steps out on a "do not pitch" situation, the sign/simulation should take place after the "do not pitch" is over.
I don't see this as a time out or not issue, just a question of the rule intent.

JMO, but you are looking at it exactly opposite how I look at it. The only valid reason to hold up the pitcher with DNP is because the batter hasn't had a chance to get ready. If the batter doesn't choose to get ready while I'm holding up the pitcher, then after that, it isn't a "quick pitch", it is a stupid batter.

And I've seen that too, but believe the batter being ready (slowly or quickly) starts the whole sequence, else the required pause is meaningless.

my two cents.

you are the pu. the hands are your business. partner out of line.

The CCA Manual agrees also (6.10 pg.92-93)

My partner is a good umpire who I'd go on the field with anytime. He was/is simply very sure of his interpretation, while I was banking on mine. It's the difference(or not) between DNP and "time" that was at the heart of the matter. The idea of a runner leaving the bag early while I have my hand holding the pitcher up, only for me to say "I had time", and not have any penalty, didn't set right with me.

That seems to be a contradiction, but when you are holding the pitcher, that is all you are doing, holding the pitcher. Since "holding" a pitcher is means by which an umpire prevents a quick pitch, the batter should be prepared or you wouldn't let her pitch, right?


Can't say without seeing it, but I would not discount the possibility.

OTOH, ger rid of the LBR and that issue would disappear.

Agreed, I am trying to understand if I am doing the correct mechanic when I 'hold' the pitcher. Currently, I am allowing her to perform the preliminaries, prior to the 'starting' of the pitch. I have seen other umpires, who would require to restart the pitch from the 'preliminaries'. It seems a little of defeating the purpose and slowing the game even further to force the pitcher to restart the preliminaries.



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we are not calling into question the credentials of your partner. he made a mistake. can you see this? are you willing to say that and believe that? may be you have done this earlier and that case, ignore the questions.

this is not one of those situations where the other ump comes in and helps out the other ump. he was out of line and needs to be told that by you or someone else.

now i have given four cents. pocket is empty.

It's all cool , Ronald. Every ump makes a mistake or two, maybe even Mike (this is where I'd put a smiley face if I knew how to). I'm just trying to get all the info I can before I do a "who's right and who's wrong" thing.

JL:
I respect your opinion of your partner and the manner in which you hold him as a top umpire who you would take the field with anytime. That's about the best compliment that any umpire can give his partner.
It appears by the tone of your post(s) that your partner (and please correct me if I'm wrong here) is senior to you in umpiring experience and age. If he is, it certainly explains your deference to him.
That being said, as several posters have stated, he was wrong here. The way you described the sitch, this is your call. It's clearly evident that as the PU, you were on top of the situation. It's not like you were back there totally clueless to what was going on and to the possibility of an IP or a QP. You had control of the situation and in your judgement there were no violations. End of story. Until the OC comes out and complains it's not an issue. For all his good points, your P really did you no favors here. I'm surprised that he didn't catch any crap from the DC on the IP calls.
IMO, he showed you up. He also has either no regard or knowledge for the prescribed NCAA mechanics for crew responsibilities on IP's, does not know the NCAA definition and effect of a quick pitch, and has a rather warped concept about how to work as a crew.

Just click on the one you want to the right of the text box. The appropriate one for your comment is :eek:, but could be :p or ;).

BTW, I don't remember being at that game ("My partner is a good umpire who I'd go on the field with anytime") :rolleyes: ;) :D :cool:

I had pretty much the same scenario in a recent college game. Pitcher had a tendency to "quick pitch." So, I slowed her down by raising my hand in a DO NOT PITCH signal. I did this while the batters were getting set in the batters box. Now, here's my side. Since all I was doing was telling the pitcher not to pitch, I continued to count the seconds off in my head for the batter to get ready in the box (as per NCAA Rules Book). How can you do this if you rule TIME? This would mean that a batter can take more than her allotted time to get in the box, right? And by slowing the pitcher down, she certainly met the criteria for taking (or simulating taking) a signal on the plate with hands separated. I don't think there's anything in the rules book that says when, during the "countoff" pitcher is to do this. Unless, time really was called.

Just my thoughts (for whatever the're worth).

Serg

There is something I want to post, but I'm afraid people would take it the wrong way and wonder how an umpire could call an IP for not releasing in time while being held up by the PU :rolleyes: :D

just call time, and when the batter gets set, you get set and point to the pitcher "play". If she quick pitches, declare a no-pitch and if she asks why, tell her that you haven't lifted the "time" call yet. Usually the pitcher gets the hint after once or twice. The pitcher quick pitching is one of the reasons I will never put on my mask directly behind the plate. If the mask comes off, I step to the side, put my mask on, and step back behind the catcher. If I see the pitcher pitching, a quick "time" call usually gets her to stop...