Award after obstruction on another runner
 

I check this forum occasionally to stay up to date on rules issues, but haven't posted. I'm a 5th year ump, doing mostly high school & some ASA. I have a question about what to do at the end of a play on which obstruction occurs & is called.

R1 on 3B, R2 on 1B, 1 out. Fly ball to LF. R1 tags & tries to score, F2 sets up directly in basepath without the ball, runner veers toward foul territory & attempts headfirst slide, ball arrives just as R1 bounces off F2's legs & misses plate due to the contact. F2 hits the dirt, too, but scrambles to tag runner behind the plate & does so before runner can touch the plate. Plate umpire has signaled obstruction & calls "Obstruction -- safe!" as F2 attempts the play on the runner.

Meanwhile, R2 has tagged, reached 2B & rounded it. Seeing the contact at the plate & F2 going after R1 behind the plate, R2 heads for third & is most of the way there at the time F2 tags R1. No play is made on her at 3B.

Here's the question: does R2 stay at 3B or must she be returned to 2B?

I'm handicapped in not having my rule book with me at the moment, but I believe the rulebook reads that at the end of the play on which obs occurs,
the delayed dead ball becomes a dead ball & runners are awarded the bases they would have reached, in the umpire's judgment, without the obs.

Here's the problem: without obs (i.e., if F2 makes a clean tag on R1 in front of the plate, or even if she misses the tag), R2 would never have tried to advance to 3B. But due to the action & delay in between the time of the obs & the time "dead ball" occurs, R2 is able to advance most of the way to the next base.

Should the base award be made (a) as of the time of the obs, in which case
R2 is put back on 2B, or (b) as of the time the ball becomes dead, in which case R2 is put on 3B. Seems to me that (a) penalizes the offense for an infraction by the defense. But I supposed looked at the other way, it's a question of whether the offense can gain an extra base as a result of an obs infraction by the defense.

I hope I've explained that clearly

Seems clear to me, VG first post. :)

Other runners' positions are not determined by the timing of the OBS.

If the ball becomes dead because of an apparent putout of an obstructed, then check the others. There is a rule of thumb that progress 1/2 way is awarded forwarded, but in your case, the runner is "most of the way there at the time F2 tags R1"; so 3rd base.

Agree.
And to echo Cecil's comment....nice job on your first post.

Yes. Well-organized and lucid writing, superior to what I normally edit for physicians and Ivy League professors. You can't fake it. blueit is an educated man.

Stick around, blueit! Just don't ask about rising fastballs.

(Yes, I know there's a missing period at the end.)

Go ahead and ask on the baseball forum. That thread has yet to come up this year. :D

Thanks for the replies.

I looked further last night & found this comment on "delayed dead ball" in the NFHS case book: "... the umpire, at the end of playing action, declares the ball dead, for the purpose of making an award or imposing a penalty." It doesn't say "at the end of the play on the obstructed runner," but "at the end of playing action," so if a runner is going from 2B to 3B as the obstruction occurs, I'd say the "playing action" ends when she reaches 3B (or is tagged out -- she shouldn't be protected because there's obs. on another runner).

When an obstructed runner is put out while she is still protected, the ball is dead immediately, hence there is no further playing action.

As the others have noted, very good description of the play! I want to comment on the part of your post that I have emphasized above:

Since the obstructed runner was tagged out prior to reaching the base she was protected to (home), the PU's call should have been

DEAD BALL!..Obstruction on the catcher, award of home, R2, award of third base!

Tom (Dakota) alluded to this in his post. Remember that with OBS, you may have to place not only the obstructed runner, but any other runner affected by the obstruction.

When debating whether or not to advance a runner due to obstruction, it is generally a good practice to award the forward base. After all, the defense violated a rule, why should they benefit by keeping a runner(s) from advancing?

I appreciate the advice from the experienced pros, but what you're saying to do doesn't square with the NFHS casebook. Maybe ASA or NCAA is different, but I'm reading the Fed books. There could be something else in the rulebook or casebook I missed that contradicts what I'm reading, but the case book (2009 version) says twice -- under "Delayed Dead Ball" comment 5.1.2 and again under 8.4.3 Situation C that the umpire declares the ball dead "at the end of playing action."

If a runner is going from 2B to 3B as an obstructred runner is being tagged "out" (she's not out, she's safe due to the obs., so the tag means nothing & is just wasted effort by the defense) at the plate, I've got to say "'playing action" has not ended. F2 could still throw to 3B & try to get an out there on an advancing runner.

And the reality is that the runner at 2B is not affected at all by the obstruction at the plate, other than in a positive way (gaining some time while F2 obstructs & then tries to tag the obstructed runner). I really don't think that's what the rule means by "affected." Again, NFHS casebook comment 8.4.3, Sit C (2009 ed.) says very specifially that an award would be made to "all runners effected by the obstruction ..." (It means "affected".) I don't think that means a runner at 2B when the obs. play is at home, 84 feet away.

So, begging to differ (and with some trepidation), I don't think there should be an award to the runner between 2B & 3B at all, so long as "playing action" continues.

If I'm wrong, I'd sure like a rulebook or casebook reference that I could use to back me up if I kill a play after a non-out tag is made on an obstructed runner & other action continues on the play.

The real interesting question: if F2 comes up from the non-out tag & throws the runner out at 3B, is it an out? The way the NFHS casebook reads, I think it is. The unaffected runner should get no protection.

I think Rule 8-4, Art. 3c leads to the same result. 8-4-3c uses the same wording "each other runner affected by the obstruction" will be awarded bases. I don't think a runner at 2B is affected by obs. at the plate, at least not in the way the rule means.

Rule 8-4, Art. 3a could be read differently, but I think something has to be implied that's not specifically stated there. Art. 3a does say that if "the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called and the obstructed runner and each other runner affected by the obstruction" are awarded basis.

I've got 2 problems with the wording of Art. 3a, though. One, using the term "put out" doesn't make much sense, because the runner isn't out at all. She's safe. If the intent is to say "tagged," then the Rule should say tagged.
Two, although Art. 3a says "a dead ball is called," it does not say WHEN the dead ball is called -- whether immediately or after other playing action ends. The casebook comments DO say when, twice: "at the end of playing action."

I can't see killing the play, with "playing action" continuing, immediately when a useless tag is made on a safe, obstructed runner. Doing that gives the defense (which has just committed an infraction) an advantage: they can possibly "freeze" runners by making a pointless tag.

And what happens if F2, hearing an "Obstruction ... Safe!" call, realizes that a tag on the safe runner is a waste of time & effort, so she makes a throw
to try to get a runner heading to another base? If "dead ball" isn't called without a tag & play continues, why should it be called with a tag? The F2 who's just obstructed a runner should have the ability to stop further play by making a meaningless tag on the obstructed runner? That doesn't make sense to me.

Maybe 8-4 Art. 3a has been applied as you say and that's just "how it's done." But if so, it's not done the way the comments to the casebook say it should be done.

I'm getting conflicting advise from experienced umpires and the casebook comments. Oh boy.

Make that "advice" in the last sentence of my prior comment. If I correct casebook spelling, I need to correct my own.

Just read that for what it says; it's the right reference and people are telling you how to call it.
Your approach would get messy as she could be put out in other ways. She could avoid a tag or be forced out.
Most delayed dead balls (all?) have you rule what happens without a penalty and then call a dead ball and enforce the penalty. CO but the ball is hit and the runner is out at first. BU calls out. PU calls dead ball and makes an award. IP same thing.
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Tastylikepeachs live

Just take the rule at its word. When the protected runner is put out, the ball is dead. Right then. You then have to deal with placing the other runners, if any.

Case plays deal only with the situation presented, and are usually structured to illustrate a particular clarifying point they are trying to make. Case plays are not rules.

An obstructed runner is not "safe", until she is....safe. In your scenario, by touching home plate. From your description, that didn't happen. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball...a DDB is saying, when this is all over, there may be some additional stuff to do.

Read NFHS case book play 8.4.3 sit A - In the Ruling it says that the umpire will signal obstruction when it occurs and then call time at the end of playing action or when the obstructed runner is put out before reaching the base she would have reached ... had there been no obstruction (emphasis mine)

In your play, TIME should have been called as soon as the runner was tagged prior to reaching the plate. Once time is called, nothing else can happen. you now have to place runners at the base(s) you think they would have obtained without the obstruction. The easy one is the obstructed runner...she gets home. You still have one other runner to deal with, however, and it is strictly your judgement that determines where she is placed. From your description, I would lean toward putting her at third.

I don't think 8.4.3 Sit A and Sit. C are consistent.

But in Sit A (F6 grabs runner headed toward 3B), consider 2 scenarios:

A - F5 receives throw w/ a foot on 3B (force play), or

B - F5 receives throw off the base & doesn't try to tag R1, who's being held by the SS, according to the Sit.

R2 has hesitated or fallen & isn't quite to 2B yet. F5 throws to 2B & the throw barely beats F2.

In A, if handled as in other comments, the play is killed (immediate dead ball) as soon as F5 receives the throw & R1 is "put out". It's umpire's judgment
where to put R2, though R2 wasn't really affected by the obs. [Which seems a problem to me -- awarding bases to a runner not affected by the obstruction.] She can't be put on 1B -- the batter-runner is there. If R2 was more than halfway to 2B, she probably is awarded 2B, though she was not affected by the obstruction at all.

In B, R2 is out & play continues if batter-runner does anything -- even though R2 was no more affected by the obstruction than in A.

In A, that's certainly not declaring a dead ball "at the end of playing action."
And the defense gets an out merely because F5's foot was off the base when she got the throw. What a strange way for the defense to get a break.

What I'm being advised is to ignore the comments in the casebook & apply a rule that doesn't say when to declare dead ball, but is generally considered to imply that dead ball should be declared when the "out" happens.
That rule & the casebook comments need some work. The rule itself is not clear as to the timing of the dead ball call and the explanatory casebook comments are, evidently, wrong.

Somehow, if I'm a coach who's affected by this application of the rule & I read those comments, I'm not going to be satisfied with the explanation of "But that's how it's supposed to be called, despite those comments, which are wrong."

NFHS needs to amend the rule or delete those comments from the casebook.

One concept you need to grasp is the obstruction rule is not intended to be punative, but rather restorative.

I understand, but if the situation is to be restored to what would've happened without the obstruction, why do runners unaffected by the obstruction get awarded bases? That doesn't fit the concept.

They don't.

But that's what's been suggested above. Umpire should award a base (a "more than halfway" rule of thumb was suggested) to a runner who hasn't been affected by the obstruction. The runner was rounding 2B when the obs. occurred at home plate.

Or in the 8.4.3 Sit A example, the runner between 1B & 2B wasn't affected by the obstruction occurring at SS. Yet is she awarded 2B? (She can't be put on 1B, where the batter is.)

When an obstructed runner is put out, the ball is dead and this makes more sense then you're giving credit for.
Sitch: R1 on 2nd, B2 hits a short single to left and R1 is obstructed going to third (protected to third). The throw is made to SS where the runner is tagged out just before B2 gets to first.

In the rules this is a dead ball and we award the base we believe the runner would have been safe at had the play continued. (Nothing to do with the result of the obstruction).

In your mind, we should let that play continue. But what do you do with R1. Suppose she is tagged, gets up and runs to 3rd. B2 has rounded the bag and the throw to pick her off goes into shallow right field. R1 decides to go home on this action in a) the fielder having seen her tagged out throws to 1st. in b) the fielder decides to throw home and as a result B2 gets 2nd.
What are you going to do?

Just call it the way the rules read, when an obstructed runner is put out it is an immediate dead ball; the obstructed runner is awarded the protected base and all other runners are awarded the base they would have achieved if the ball had not been called dead. If the obstructed runner is not put out, the ball remains live.

Yes, the defense is more likely to get an out while the ball is live so it is to their advantage in most cases not to retire an obstructed runner, but that's way past most softball players.
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Ocean View Condominiums Pattaya

As above, the timing of the OBS has nothing to do with the placement of other runners. Because time out is required on an apparent putout (the non-out above) of an obstructed runner, we must do something with the other runners. In the OP, the runner can't be left standing between 2nd and 3rd, or in the case, left standing between 1st and 2nd.

Rule 8.4.3,b penalty A defines when the dead ball / time out is called. Besides any other runners affected by the OBS, placement of additional runners is a judgement. No advancement on their own can occur with time out or a dead ball. The other runner(s) are not "awarded" bases, they are placed on a base because they have to be on one or the other.

Whether the time out makes sense to you is not the point, it is the prescribed procedure; so we are stuck with the result.

No, the umpire is actually allowing the runner to complete the runner task, but if you want to call it an award, that's fine.

Now, if you need justification, you can "award" that runner 3B because s/he was indeed affected by the OBS. How, you ask? Simple since the dead ball ruling is dictated by the rule, the OBS call kept that runner from reaching the base s/he would have reached had the OBS not occurred. Of course, you could "judge" that the runner would not have reasonably reached 3B safely and leave him/her at 2B.

Cannot do anything more for you. It IS the way it is in all games of which I am aware.

WRT timing, the rule book is very clear.

1. DDB is signalled at the time of obstruction. 8.4.3b Penalty. Means that you will call DB sometime in the future.


2. DB immediately when the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base she would be awarded had obstruction not occured. 8.4.3b Penalty (a). This would also include between the two bases she was obstructed.

Understand that the runner cannot be called out by rule. If you say nothing, the offense or defense may become confused due your no-call. So you kill the play right then and there.


3. Call runner out if she is past the protected base, keep the ball live, and call dead ball at the end of playing action. 8.4.3b Penalty (b)


4. If the obstructed runner is never put out, call DB at the end of playing action. (Assumed).


What to do with other runners is not clear from the text. So allow me to enter my two cents worth.

A - IF you call DB when the obstructed runner is put out, you have suspended other runners at that instant. You, and your partner are required to quickly find other runners and to place them where you think they would have ended had you not killed the play. General rule-of-thumb is 50/50; if they are more than halfway, send them to next base. Otherwise return them to prior base.

B - if play ends normally and then you call DB to make awards, the only time you have to be concerned about other runners is when you put the obstructed runner on a base occupied by another runner. If that happens, the obstructed runner gets that base, and the other runner must vacate and go forward or back.

Assume you award the obstructed runner to 3B, but during the play the lead runner decided not to go home and is now back on 3B. Send her home.

Assume you award the obstructed runner back to 2B, but the batter-runner went all the way to 2B. Send her back to 1B.

Hope that helps.

WMB

I think you both (IM & WMB) agree with what I said, no disagreement I can find, but let me know if you disagree. :cool:

Which brings up something I hadn't had to think about until last Sunday.
That is how the award affects the preceeding or following runners.
Basically, an obstruction award can "push" a preceeding runner forward or a following runner back.

So R1 on 1st.
B2 hits to outfield.
R1 obstructed between 2nd and 3rd, subsequently thrown out at 3rd as BR comes into 2nd.
Judgement was that R1 would NOT have attained 3rd absent the obstruction.
R1 placed on 2nd, BR returns to 1st.

Correct placement?

I understand what you're all saying & I really don't want to argue with multiple umpires with your level of experience. I'll try to call things in the future as you suggest. There remain some troubling parts of the printed NFHS rules & casebook comments -- how they're worded, inconsistency between rulebook & casebook, and a concept (play continues if no tag, play stops if there's a tag ... though the tag has no effect on safe/out).

1. Wording -- every mention in the rules and comments of awarding bases to other runners refers to "runners affected by the obstruction", not just runners. I don't buy the notion that "affected by the obstruction" means affected by a dead ball call that results not from the obstruction itself (which is only a delayed dead ball, and "the ball will remain live" as it says in the penalty part of 8-4.3.b), but from subsequent events -- whether a tag is attempted & made & whether the umpire 84 feet away calls "dead ball."

Another problem with the wording is that, contrary to a couple of posts above, no rule specifies WHEN the "dead ball" call is to be made. 8-4-3b
says "a dead ball is called". It does not say "... when the put out occurs." Nor does it say "immediate".
That is a implication which everyone apparently agrees should be made.
But that's inconsistent with the casebook comments.

A third problem is the use of the term "put out" to refer to an obstructed runner who's tagged without reaching the base. She's not really out, because
to quote the 8-4-3B Penalty: "An obstructed runner may not be called out between the two bases where she was obstructed." So she can't be "called out", but she can be "put out"? Wow. Explain that to a coach. If the rule means "tagged" (I can't think of another way an obstructed runner could be "put out"), that's what it should say.

2 Inconsistency -- The casebook comments, in 2 different places as detailed above, do specifically state when the "dead ball" call is to be made: "at the end of playing action," which is not the same thing as "when the obstructed runner is put out." If other runners are still moving on the bases, "playing action" has not ended. Either (a) the "playing action" specified in the comments is implied to be the "playing action" on the obstructed runner only, not other runners), or (b) the comment is just wrong, as being in conflict with the IMPLICATION of the rule that "dead ball" should be called when the obstructed runner is tagged. And (a) can't be correct -- because playing action does continue, everyone agrees, if there's no tag.

3. Concept -- The result indicated in the above comments is that play continues if a fielder does not tag an obstructed runner, but is stopped
if there is a tag. Just from a philosophical, "what should the rule be?" standpoint, why should a tag that has no bearing at all on safe/out status
(because the obstructed runner can't be called out between those bases)
determine whether play continues or not? If I were drafting the rule from scratch, I wouldn't want a meaningless play by a fielder on a runner she's just obstructed to affect other runners. For 2 reasons -- (1) If there's been a collision due to obs., it's not unusual that tempers flare, and a rule that
encourages the obstructing player to continue to try to tag the runner
(despite having presumably heard an "obstruction!" call, which means the runner is safe) is probably not wise. (2) That the obstructing fielder can suspend or freeze the progress of other runners (by getting an immediate "dead ball" call) bothers me. To me, that's punishing the offense for a rule infraction by the defense. If the concept underlying obs./DDB is to restore players to what they would have done without the obs. (as Tom stated above), then other runners should be allowed to do what they would've done without the obs.: either stop or try for the next base. Instead, their position is now determined by umpire judgment, because the obstructing fielder made a meaningless tag, even though they weren't "affected" in the normal sense by the obstruction.

And one more thing, then I'll shut up. What if, in the OP, instead of missing the tag at the plate on the first pass so that there's a delay of several seconds between the obstruction & the tag, F2 does touch the obstructed runner just after receiving the ball. The tag converts a DDB into a "dead ball" almost immediately. There's essentially no "delay" to a DDB, and the statement in 8-4-3b (Penalty) that "The ball will remain live" doesn't mean much. Not to mention the "end of playing action" comments.

Bottom line for me: the rulebook & casebook are a mess in this area. The rulebook never specifies exactly when "dead ball" is to be called. The casebook comments do, but they're wrong. Runners unaffected by the obstruction itself are placed on bases according to umpire judgment, despite the rule language only applying to "affected" runners. An obstructed runner can be "put out" but not "called out." Imagine explaining all that to a coach who carefully reads, after a "continuing action" play following obstruction, the casebook and inquires (post-game,one would hope), "Why do these comments not apply?" That's a tough one. What would fix this would be the following:

1. In rule 8-4-3b, PENALTY add after "a dead ball is called": "when the obstructed runner is tagged." (Again, I can't think of a way a runner not reaching the base would be "put out" without being tagged.)

2. In the same sentence, add after "runner affected by the obstruction", add "or the 'dead ball' call".

3. In the comments, clarify that dead ball is to be called "(i) at the end of playing action if no tag is made on the obstructed runner, or (ii) when the obstructed runner is tagged."

None of those things is clear from the present rules or comments. This all may seem clear to those of you who have been calling it this way for many years, but it isn't clear to others who carefully read the rules & comments.

With no ill intent, your rulebook lawyering just isn't quite getting you where you're trying to get. A couple of thoughts, first:

You didn't read my first response to you very carefully then. There are other ways. But suppose your interpretation was right. When would an immediate dead ball result? The rule probably could be less easily misread if it read when a runner would be out if not for the result of the penalty of the obstruction; but it's not exactly easy to get to your result anyway and it would make it harder for people to refresh themselves on the rule.

I'm not sure which case plays you mean and if you'll cite them we can discuss in more detail, but generally I think your confusion is this. A delayed dead ball is a situation where the ball will be dead at the end of playing action. That is the result of obstruction. The result of putting out a runner who is protected because of obstruction is a dead ball. A dead ball is not a delayed dead ball. If there is a case where they confuse them can you post it?

You may not like the rule but I assure you, your alternative would result in players confused as could be.
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How To Roll A Joint

I cited the case book plays above: 8.4.3, Sit C ... no mention of immediate dead ball, and base award is "at the end of playing action." Not "end of playing action on the obstructed runner", as you would have it, but the end of playing action period. If runners are still moving on the bases, playing action is continuing.

More specifically, the comment to 5.1.2 reads:
"What is meant by 'delayed dead ball'? The term applies to situations in which an infraction is not to be ignored and, therefore, the umpire, at the end of playing action, declares the ball dead for the purpose of making an award or imposing a penalty. These sisutations include ... runner being obstructed."

Someone else mentioned 8.4.3, Sit A, which mentions calling time "at the end of playing action or when the obstructed runner is put out." [Note, if "whichever comes first" is implied, it's not stated.] But that Sit involves something different than the original post & relates to a different subsection of the rule involving a runner being obstructed by another fielder other than the one in possession of the ball.

And with all due respect, you keep trying to add "immediate" to the dead ball call in the rule. It's not in the rule. Following the timiing specified in comments, there would be no immediate dead ball on obstruction. It would be a delayed dead ball, at the end of playing action. That way, the dead ball timing would be the same, whether or not the obstructed runner was tagged. That would lessen confusion, not increase it. (And for what it's worth, it would make umpires' jobs easier: no
need to look for a meaningless tag after obstruction. Instead, they could focus on the continuing action on the basepaths.)

Call it lawyering if you want. I call it reading the casebook as we're repeatedly told to do & trying to do what it says in the absence of any specificity in the rule about when to call dead ball.

And, by the way, your prior post does not given an ex. of how an obstructed runner can be "put out" other than being tagged.

I mean the whole case play so we can see what it's talking about. I'm not adding anything to the deadball. When a batter is hit with a pitch it's a dead ball. That's not the same thing as a delayed dead ball because it is immediately dead.

How could she be obstructed by anyone but a fielder other than the one in posession of the ball?
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Sick From Prilosec

Actually, the onus is on you here. There is a difference between a delayed dead ball and a dead ball. One is delayed and the other isn't. ;) They have different definitions and different applications.

Rule 8-4-3b PENALTY-a states conditions when the ball is dead. The rule states, "If the obstructed runner is put out prior to reaching the base that would have been reached had there not been obstruction, a dead ball is called..." How do you call a dead ball? How do you do that while keeping the ball live? How is it reasonable to interpret this sentence to mean "when you get around to it, call a dead ball"?

Since you want to interpret that as a delayed dead ball merely because they do not state (redundantly) "immediately", show another example of the rule book using the term "dead ball" when it is interpreted as "delayed dead ball."

Not "when you get around to it", but when playing action ends, as the Comment to Sit 5.1.2 instructs.

I certainly agree that dead ball & delayed dead ball are different. A dead ball is immediate, a ddb isn't. Obstruction is a delayed dead ball. Indeed, Rule 5, Art. 1 does use the term "immediately" to describe certain dead ball situations.
A "put out" on an obstructed runner isn't one of the listed situations and Rule 8-4-3b doesn't use the term "immediately", which has been used with other dead ball situations in 5-1. Everyone wants to read "immediately" into 8-4-3b just as it appears in 5-1. But it ain't there.

Consider this: In the play desribed in the OP, F2 upon receiving the ball tries a swipe tag on the runner she's obstructed & then quickly fires a throw to 3B to try to nail an advancing runner. If she brushes the obstructed runner with a tag, it's an "immediate" dead ball, I've been told in these posts. If she misses by an inch, playing action continues. [Editorial aside: does that really make sense? Why kill that play on a delayed dead ball?]

Continuing that thought further, if in the tag situation the throw beats the
runner at 3B & F5 tags her out, the play at 3B doesn't count, because the ball was immediately dead upon the tag. The umpire has to place the runner somewhere. Do you give her 3B? She was more than halfway to 3B when the ball became dead. But, not being affected in the normal sense by the obs., what base would she have reached without the obstruction? She'd have been out at 3B. Do you give it to her anyway, even as an unaffected runner? Or do you put her back on 2B because she was between bases when the ball was declared dead? If you put her on either base, you're protecting (or awarding a base to) an unobstructed, unaffected runner even though rule says only "each other runner affected by the obstruction will be awarded the base or bases which would have been reached..."

If F2's sweep tag just misses the runner, no immediate dead ball, playing action continues & runner heading to 3B is out.

So a touched or missed sweep tag that makes no difference as far as safe/out on the obstructed runner is concerned has a huge effect on the
subsequent play. That may be "just the way it is," but that doesn't seem right to me. And it makes it very important for the plate umpire to determine whether there is or isn't a tag, even though the tag has no effect on the play at home.

You didn't answer my question. Where does the rule book use the term "dead ball" when it means "delayed dead ball"? You want to interpret the use of the term "dead ball" in 8-4-3b PENALTY-a as meaning "delayed dead ball". Prove it.

To add to this, in what situation is 8-4-3b being a delayed dead ball anything but surplusage. We already had a DDB before the put out so what exactly does that rule mean?
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Pattaya condominiums

Thank God. Could you imagine how long the posts would be if he DID want to argue? :rolleyes:

there is no need to be captious.

by now it should follow that the dead ball call is 'immediate' given that all playing action needs to cease. when? right now which means immediate. wanting too much from the rule book.

gotta go library is closing

Are you trying to spoil our fun? ;)

Well, y'all did compliment him on his well-written, complete, and clear first post!

It may well be my last post. This will be my last on this topic.

We've got a rule that doesn't say immediate or delayed dead ball (for the tag that makes no safe-out difference). We've got a comment that specifically says call dead ball at the end of the play, not upon the non-event tag. And we end up awarding bases or protection to runners not affected by the obstruction. None of those things seem to bother anyone here.

Evidently it's too much of a threat to the "this is how we call it" mindset
to even acknowledge that the rule is incomplete or the comment is wrong,
not to mention explore the WHY of whether a meaningless tag should kill further action. I was hoping for some real objective, 'big picture' discussion of why this SHOULD be called as it apparently is, and at least an acknowledgment that both the rule and comment need some improvement or (as to the comment) deletion.

Instead, it's just, over and over, "of course it's an immediate dead ball ... because that's how we call it."

I've taken an informal poll among 3-4 of the younger umps in our group & several of the old timers. The former group, after I've explained "how it's called", despite the casebook comment, was unanimous that "That doesn't make much sense." The latter group's reaction was, "That's how it's always been called," and they don't really want to think about whether it really makes sense or not -- that's just the way it is. It's apparent which group predominates here.

Let me repeat... You didn't answer my question. Where does the rule book use the term "dead ball" when it means "delayed dead ball"? You want to interpret the use of the term "dead ball" in 8-4-3b PENALTY-a as meaning "delayed dead ball". Prove it.

A couple of things you need to learn about the NFHS (or ASA or nearly any other) rule book. First, it is not a fine piece of writing. Second, it assumes the reader has familiarity with the game. Third, it uses defined terms as defined.

On point one, the so-called ambiguity you cite is not a big deal in light of points 2 and 3.

On point two, if you are unfamiliar with how the game is called, that is what clinics and training are for. Parsing the syntax of the rule book will only get you so far... see point number 1.

On point three, when the book says the ball is dead, it means it. Dead. Kaput. Playing action stops. Right then. That is the meaning of the word in the rules. It really doesn't matter what Webster might say, or whether a case play doesn't cover all possible variations or answer all possible questions. A dead ball is dead.

Besides Tom's excellent points, I'd just add one thing. You haven't been carefully reading the responses you are getting because this has been dealt with. For example, I provided you a case where your proposed alternative language wouldn't work and a case where your rule would just create a mess and you dropped those threads. Tom has very clearly pointed out that dead ball means dead ball and challenged you to provide a single rule book rule where that wasn't the case multiple times.
You assert that there is a case play with comment that is incorrect, but you haven't posted the whole text of it so what you see as a contradiction might well just be a case where you're missing a distinguishing factor of the play. The folks here will be happy to teach you as noted by the fact that they put up with me. They are veterans who like helping people and discussing interesting softball situations. But you have to put in a fair effort on your side and realize that you're not offering anything to them. They know how to call this and they know how to read the rule.
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Yes, it does. I challenge you to cite the rule that even brings it into question. I reiterate, "a rule", not a TWP scenario.

That is because we read the rules, attend/conduct clinics and schools and study interpretations provided by the powers that be. You are debating a rule that is explicitly clear as to the status of the ball.

The ONLY question is that which started this thread of where to place runners between bases when the ball, BY RULE, is declared dead. You have been given opinion, interpretation and rule applications as to how this situation can be handled.

NO, IT IS AN IMMEDIATE DEAD BALL BECAUSE THE RULE SAYS SO!!!

Then your group has either received some pretty poor training or you haven't been paying attention.....sorta like in this thread.

Ok. Did not know you guys were having fun. I saw something different from the other side.

Wow! I miss a week of OF and of course, an argument ensues.

Heck, it's usually only 24 hours! A week makes it guaranteed.

The "playing action" it the play being made on the runner by F2.:D

I'm not sure how seriously to take that with the smiley and all. But that's definitely not helping.
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