Illegal Pitch? What is Your Opinion? (Video)
 

Assuming that these pitches were being thrown in a game...Would you be calling an Illegal Pitch?

YouTube - Pitching Video

After seeing the video, yes :rolleyes:

Illegal..but needed the slow motion frames to see it.

At the risk of restarting an old disagreement with WMB, that video is a perfect example of a version of a crow hop despite the hands being together; the pitcher is driving off, and replanting, and gaining a new impetus from the second location.

I believe he has stated in other posts that this is a legal ending of the drag; I don't agree.

I still don't get the "hands" inclusion in a crow hop issue. In the video, the hands are clearly separated prior to the foot exiting the area of the plate.

I would call her for the leap rather than the crowhop. From the slow motion, it is obvious that she is airborn for a split second. If you were to put a piece of paper in front of and touching the pitching plate, it would not be drug along with her dragging foot. It hardly seems like her weight is on her back leg enough to consider it a new push-off point. Additionally, I don't agree with some statements that suggest that the drag foot must be turned over with only the toe dragging.

Would everyone who thinks that the girl mentioned above crowhops also think that this is a crow hop?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-cJn...eature=related

or this one?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6km9...eature=related

or these?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5U82m...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDBWK...eature=related

Curious to see everyone's opinion on these.

While, yes, she does go airborne, IMO this is not a leap. She's landing, pushing and dragging from a 2nd point prior to the release. Therefore, by definition, this is a crow hop.

I thought I saw a slight crow hop, but slow mo exaggerates everything. lmk if I'm wrong.

Wilkens-Illegal on all 6 pitches
Klem-Illegal on all 6 pitches
Cannon-Backdoor screwball-Illegal
Rise&Curve-couldn't see anything illegal from video
McGilvary-Fastball-Illegal
Changs, curve, drop,rise-Legal

Of the IP's...some were crow hops, some were leaps.

If you read the rule, it tell it all:
J. Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher’s plate is
illegal.
K. (Women’s and all JO Play) Pushing off and dragging the pivot foot in contact
with the ground is required. If a hole has been created, the pivot foot may
drag no higher than the level plane of the ground.

I don't know about that. I saw it immediately. We've had several discussions around here about how the crow hop name gives (especially newer) officials the wrong idea of what to look for. It is still illegal even if it is a crow slide. :)

With that being said, if you are ever unsure, just go brush the plate and it is usually obvious when you see the consistent push off point in front of the pitching plate.

Dan,
Thanks for the tip..I'll definitely use it. My comment about "needing slow motion" is not so much about being a newer (inexperienced) official. I just could not (from the video) definitely determine if she was illegal at full speed from either the rear or the side view....to the point of being able to explain why (if asked) it was an IP when I called it. This is not say that I would not have been able to see the gap between her pivot foot and the ground or the absence of drag, or the replant of her pivot foot if I had been on the field....just couldn't clearly see what part wasn't legal at first pass.
BTW...even viewing again AFTER reading your post...I still needed slo-mo to catch it.
Thanks again for the tip.

So is what I am hearing that everyone would rule these pitchers illegal? If so, would you call it consistently during a game? Have you ever experienced pitchers such as these?

I thought that the qualification that a crow hop happens before the hands separate put this issue to rest, but it appears there is still controversy.

Why would you not call it consistently throughout the game? If you see it clearly and call a pitcher for an IP...if it happens again you call it. She's obligated by the rules to pitch legally. Pitcher's gain an advantage when they throw illegally. I remember hearing/reading once that for every foot closer to the plate a pitcher can get before she releases the ball, it adds 3 mph to the speed of the pitch.

>Are illegal pitches tough to identify? Somtimes-YES..
>Do you need to definitely know for sure why it's not a legal pitch and be positive of what you saw...or did not see (Ex.-absence of drag)? YES.
>WHY? Because you have to be able to explain it to the pitcher and coach if asked.
>Do you have to be prepared to take some complaining from the coach for calling it? PROBABLY.
>Do you need to have the guts to continue to call IP's when and where they occur throughout the game? YES.

Question..what do the hands separating have to do with determining if the pitcher crow hopped?

What either got this discussion started, or added fuel to it, was an explanation from NFHS.

From the NFHS 2009 Rule Book, Points of Emphasis, Pitching:

Depends on who you talk to but from what I have been trained a crow hop is starting the pitch from somewhere other than the pitching plate, pushing off creating a second impeitus(SP?) (starting point) the pitch starts when the hands are seperated, so hand position has EVERYTHING to do with if it's a crow hop or not. Again there are some on this board that have VERY strong feelings the other way, some look at those videos and see things differently and wouldn't rule illegal. This is difficult since someone is right and someone is wrong, and it would be great to get some official interpretations on close videos like these to help clear some of this up.

I look at some of these videos and it looks like the hip is closing to me, not that they are illegal. If I remember correctly once the front foot lands the drag foot can come up off the ground again, right? So if the front foot is planted and then they push off the back foot as they are releasing the ball how is that gaining an illegal advantage? What makes that illegal? 1) Both feet aren't in the air at the same time, so no leap. 2) Pitch was started when hands were seperated on pitching plate, so no crow hop. 3) Front foot is where it originally landed when she took her stride off the pitching plate so how is she gaining an advantage that is in conflict with the rules?

ASA - RS #40

NFHS - POE (last in 2009 rulebook)


WMB

I can't find anything in the rules to prohibit it.

6-1.2c "... Pushing off with the pivot foot from a place other than the pitcher's plate is illegal."


So, whether it is a "crow hop" or not, if you push off from somewhere other than the pitcher's plate, it's an illegal pitch. At this point I think we would be well served to dispense with the terms "crow hop" and "leap" since there are many arguments about what constitutes which term and stick with these two statements:

Pivot foot must only push off from the pitcher's plate.
Pivot foot must remain in contact with the plate or the ground (or the plane of the ground when the inevitible hole gets there).

Dakota, Dave, WMB...thanks for the info.

the sad thing is that this gals video was made to promote herself to recruiters.

I see lots of girls making softball videos of themselves, and putting them up on youtube for scholastic purposes.

I'm a Baseball umpire
 

But isn't that a garden variety crow hop?

She does not push off a second time on many of these pitches. You really need to look at the knee to make a good call. In many of these pitches the knee continues forward and the foot kicks out. On a few you can see the second push. Also be careful looking for that hole as suggested earlier. That hole is made just the same with the kick out of the foot.

IMO you really need to think about the leg mechanic when determining if this is an illegal pitch. If it remains straight I have nothing. If it bends and straightens out I have an IP.

It would seem to me that if a pitcher separated her hands to start the pitch and had one of her feet out of contact with the rubber it would be an illegal pitch because of the fact she did not start in a legal position.

Perhaps....they're clues, and a they're good ones, but be careful, if it's straight but still off the ground you could still have a replant...or maybe not.
Look at that back leg, if it's bent it's still bearing her weight, an excellent indicator that a replant is about to occur and that her drag has started from a from a second spot in front of the pitcher's plate.
Remember also, that if we're asked by the coach/pitcher for an explanation as to why the pitch was an IP, "her leg was bent and then straightened out" is not language that appears in the definition of an IP in the rule book.

Coach in my judgment it is legal. Nothing else needs to be said. If it is straight but of the ground I have leaping and an IP.