Live ball appeal - missed home plate
 

I'm confusing myself.
I could use an answer for ASA, NFHS and NCAA fastpitch.

BR beats the throw to home (by several steps - in fact there is no tag attempt) but misses home plate.
F2 mis handles ball and goes to fence to retrieve it as BR (unaware that she missed plate) heads to her dugout.
F2 tosses ball to F1 in the circle area as defence fans start shouting "throw it home", she missed the plate", etc.
By now BR is in the crowd of congratulations at her dugout.
Ball reaches F2 who has foot on plate (it is clear to me that she is appealing the missed base) and (accidentally) tags BR before she can re-touch home plate.

Question, at what point (if any) can this live ball missed base appeal be accomplished by tagging the base only (and making the appeal known).

Is it actually entering dead ball territory?

Where is it described in each of the books?

Thanks

I'm not sure I'm understanding your question...

Speaking ASA:
A live ball appeal can be made at any time the ball is live. If the defense tags the proper base and clearly appeals a specific runner missing that base, the call can be made at any time (8-7-G and RS #1). You should hesitate slightly to see if the runner will realize their mistake, then make the call. Just don't make it too obvious.

However, it should be noted that in this situation, make sure the team does not push her back towards the plate to tag it. At that point, it's a dead ball, out, run is removed (8-7-E).

There are also circumstances under which the runner may not return to touch HP if they missed it. If they've left the field of play (entering the dugout) or if a runner behind them scores, they're out of luck (RS #1).

Then you rule on the appeal.

Who cares, runner is already out. :D

At any time until the ball is declared dead or the next pitch occurs. And, of course, before the runner comes back to touch the plate.

Has no affect on the appeal play.

ASA RS #1
You're welcome

ASA Live Ball Appeal
 

Is it correct that the infielder can appeal verbally, without the ball, by telling the Umpire that the runner missed the base?

Because in baseball you have to tag the runner unless he has progressed a distance from home and is making no effort to return.

Only for a dead ball appeal. If the ball's live, the fielder (ANY fielder) with the ball may make the appeal by touching the proper base or runner.

Ahhh... The sport I've never called. :)

Wasn't sure why he was going there, but thanks for the clarification.

Similar situation
 

I had this happen on what would have been a winning run. (Time and innings expired, pool game that counted towards seeding, so it mattered). Proper appeal was made and runner was the third out. My veteran partner said the only problem was that I had not made a safe signal. However there had been no play on the runner when she crossed the plate. Should I have signaled safe, even with no play. I don't routinely give the safe signal on runs scored when they do touch the plate. Am I wrong.

Speaking ASA:
You've sort of answered your own question there. If you don't normally make a "safe" call when a runner crosses (and touches) the plate, why should you do things any differently? Anything different may tip off the defense (or offense) that the plate was missed.

What's been stressed repeatedly at NUS was no play, no call. If no play is being made on a runner, there's no reason to give a safe call.

Can't speak for NFHS or NCAA, though. If you're looking for their mechanics, someone else will have to chime in.

NCAA:
12.22 Missing a Base
12.22.2.1 If a runner misses home plate and the fielder misses or makes no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire should make a safe signal and declare "No tag." If an appeal play is made (that is by tagging either the runner or home plate), the umpire should then make a decision on the appeal.
7.1.2.1 Live Ball Appeal
A live-ball appeal is made by touching the base the runner missed or left before a fly ball was first touched or by tagging the runner who committed the violation, provided she is still on the playing field, and indicating to the umpire what is being appealed (if necessary).
2010 CCA Softball Umpires Manual:
6.1 Appeal Plays (Pg.68-70)
LIVE BALL or DEAD BALL-appeals that can be made during either a live ball or dead ball
> Missing a base
> Leaving a base on a caught fly ball before the ball is first touched
live ball appeals may be made by bringing the ball to the base missed or left too soon or by tagging the runner with the ball.....

Based on your sitch...under NCAA rules you have an out.

Thank you...
Your reference is what I was looking for.

Thanks to others for the responses.

Rich Ives was on the track as to what prompted my question.
In my particular situation, we had the out no matter what, but I was prompted to think about what (if any restrictions) there were on the live ball, missed base appeal.

RULE 7

Appeals and Protests

7.1 Appeals

7.1.1 An appeal is a play or rule violation on which the umpire does not make a ruling until requested by a coach or player. The following may be appealed:

proper appeal is not made, the runner is safe.

(a) If a runner misses home plate and the catcher misses or makes

no attempt to tag the runner, the umpire shall make a safe
signal and declare “No tag.” If a proper appeal is made, by
tagging the plate or runner before the runner returns to the
plate, the runner shall be declared out.

However, I feel this as ludicrous as pointing foul on a ball near the line.

Do they think that "no tag" is going to just be overlooked and the player and coaches are going to just say, "oh well, I missed the tag"? GMAFB!!

You know damn well this is an indicator which the catcher has been told by the coach to continue playing and block any access to the plate immediately upon hearing the umpire say anything other than safe or out.

Like I said, just my opinion.

declaring "no tag" is a huge poker tell, and far more message than a simple safe call, so I am in agreement with you. but as you'll recall in a previous thread, ump tom asked what a simple safe call communicates to everyone, coaches, players and possibly fans. in this situation, does safe = runner touched home plate? imagine a viewer watching that on TV w/ instant replay.

http://forum.officiating.com/softbal...tml#post660289

it appears that as one moves up the umpiring food chain, higher level softball expects more "lines" from umpires than simple safe/out calls, or simply "doing nothing". ASA & NFHS games will most likely never be broadcast on ESPN (ESPN36 in the future perhaps, who knows?) , but the trend seems to be calls tailored to be more palatable for a wider audience.

An easy way around this would be to simply call no tag whether they miss the base or not. I had to read this a couple of times because of assuming thta is what they'd do, to get what you were saying.
________
Live sex

But would not comply with the (stupid) rule. Only if the runner misses the plate, and there is no tag (attempted or not) does the rule state the umpire is make a declaration.

I promise I pissed off many the year they made this a rule by asking why we didn't just tell the defense "SHE MISSED THE PLATE!!!".

So much for an appeal for a missed base being a play where the umpire does not make a ruling unless asked. In the NCAA, that is only true for 3 of the 4 bases; on the fourth, we tell them to appeal!!. Because they say so!!

Not a mechanic (which you could ignore without penalty, but at your own peril). By rule, so your failure to comply is protestable.

I was right there next to you Steve, however, this weekend I used the Rule properly and no one said a word. Run scored.

The rule is only as good as the coach' knowledge of the same.:confused:

If that's the case, then the rules suck! :D

I guess it should be noted that in some levels umpires will use the term "no tag" when the ball beats a runner at a base (including home), but the tag is missed. However, usually that is followed by a safe signal and call.

Though better coaching of the catcher should resolve any issue of confusion, I can see where the two could be confused.

Come to think of it, on a miss-n-miss play, if the umpire is going to declare "no tag", why is s/he not also declaring "no touch" to equalize any perceived benefit the defense may contrive by the prescribed declaration? :D

home run, missed plate, appeal
 

In a SP Rec league last evening. League bylaws state that over the fence home runs must be run out.

Bases loaded, batter clears them with a grand slam. Batter allegedly missed HP, and the PU apparently wasn't looking [shame on him]. So an appeal was made and the PU ruled safe.

My question is about the timing of when an appeal can be made. I realize a runner cannot go back to touch HP if a subsequent runner has scored. So let's focus on the batter. Since the ball is over the fence, we have a dead ball situation. Say in his exeuberance, the batter runs past HP and doesn't touch it. How soon can the defense appeal the missed plate? The BR may realize he missed the plate and goes back to touch it two seconds after, or he's half-way to the dugout and his teammates tell him to return to touch.

I'm assuming this isn't like an appeal at 1B when the BR overruns the base without touching it. Do we wait until a ball is given to the pitcher at which point the defense can appeal?

Logically, I'm thinking when the BR enters the dugout area OR when the pitcher has a replacement ball. [And some umps give the pitcher another ball while the BR is rounding the bases. I wait until the BR has completed his tour.]

Thanx.

Do we need a ball in play for a dead ball appeal?

That's not the point.

How soon can the defense appeal the missed plate?

It's somewhere between immediately and before the next pitch [legal or illegal]. Where on that timeline do you straddle?

If the catcher is smart, the catcher will wait until the last runner leaves the field of play.

OK that gets me a bit closer to a real answer. Is this an implied answer? Does that mean that if the catcher declares an attempt to appeal and the BR hears that, the BR is within his/her right to go over and touch HP without being called out?

Come on, I know you have a rule book. :cool:

RS#1.D.1

Proper mechanic I have been taught is that you do not give the offense (pitcher if she is looking, catcher if the pitcher is not) a replacement ball after a home run until all offensive players have completed whatever advances they intend. Your giving the defense a ball implies they can NOW initiate an appeal.

If a base is missed, you look to see if the offense attempts to return; if the missed base is home, you wait until either 1) a following runner has touched, or 2) the runner that missed enters dead ball territory, before you give the defense a ball. I was taught that mechanic after the USA team missed home after home run in Olympic play, and the (foreign) umpire honored the appeal earlier than it should have been (USA player missed home, but made no attempt to return, best as I recall).

If you put a ball back into play, you should honor an appeal. So don't give it to the defense until the offense is done running bases. Just like allowing awarded bases to be touched after a ball is thrown out of play before awarding bases.

Completely agree. This is how I was taught way back in the '60's, never offer a replacement ball until the entire play in front of you has been completed.

Forget the morons who stand there waving the glove (obviously, more in SP than FP) demanding another ball. Watch the runner touch the plate and leave the area and then reach into your bag and hand another ball to the catcher.

But I do not agree with this if based on the perceived implication noted above. The ball, no matter where it is or who is holding it, is not in play until the umpire says it is in play.

Yes, it is a good piece of umpiring if you do not give the defense the opportunity to make a stupid mistake, but when the ball is dead the offense must be allowed the opportunity to complete their running assignments and even return to a missed base or base left too soon.

And I do not believe you can ignore that simply because you handed the defense a ball before you should have done so. Yeah, you are going to take some crap, but that is your issue, not the offense's

I know ... wrong sport ... but:

I saw at a baseball game (HS) once where a player hit a home run, and about when runner was between 2nd and 3rd, PU put a ball in the catcher's glove - catcher threw to pitcher. BR, after rounding third, gave the pitcher a shi+-eating grin or chuckle or something and the pitcher fired at him (missed, but still ejected).

Another reason not to put a new ball in play, I suppose.

"no tag" "safe" ???
 

Why is a missed home plate situation any different then a missed base, do you say anything when a runner misses 1st, 2nd or 3rd base?

Other than the fact they are not required to keep contact with the plate :rolleyes:

Mostly, it is not much different.

No they don't... they can proceed to the next base.

How many BR's are you watching touch the plate after a home run in SP (with the exception of those who take way to long to round the bases)?

And I am talking championship play, not the leagues that still require BR's to run out the home runs.

And why do you assume I'm referring to SP and who said this doesn't happen anytime the ball goes out of play and the umpire is waiting on a runner to complete their assignment reaching an awarded base?

Actually, I see this in baseball games also