Electronic Equipment on Field (ASA)
 

This year, ASA changed rule 4-7-C-5 to read:
ASA provided further clarification in RS #11:
The part in particular that I want to focus on is the bolded part. What should we do with base coaches who want to use an app on their iPhones as their method of scorekeeping?

I think ASA would err on the side of caution and prohibit these devices as well (and my interpretation would be in line with this statement), but with technologies constantly evolving and merging, it may become harder and harder to classify devices as "just a phone" versus "just an electronic scorebook." The distinction between a phone and a personal computer is getting very blurry. The iPad, for example, does not come with any cell phone-based technologies by default, so it conceivably could be used as just an electronic scorebook. However, an app could easily come along and use wifi to communicate with another iPad in the dugout.

For the record, there is no way to "lock" an iPhone or Android-based device into using only that one app. Even if there were, the user can just as easily unlock it and use it as a communication device.

What are your thoughts regarding this matter?

Electronic scorebooks, however, are permitted for use by base coaches.

Why is a base coach keep score?

Guess they must have a not hitting team so they need something to do.

It is a communication device and it is electronic It is illegal.

Well, plenty of base coaches keep score during games, so it's not at all unusual.

My point in bringing all of this up isn't so much for debate as it is awareness. Technology is changing. We all need to be aware of the different technologies that are coming out that could impact the game, and we need to recognize that due to technologies merging (by creating newer devices like iPhones, Android phones and iPads) and becoming more software-driven, we're going to see coaches who will want to use these devices out on the field. I've seen a lot of players on other forums ask questions like, "what's the best softball app for the iPhone?" And yes, they are out there.

Again, I'm not advocating that we allow these devices, as they are still, at their hearts, communication devices. As such, they should be prohibited from being on the field.

Personally, I think ASA and all other organizations should make a stand one way or the other. Either completely disallow electronic devices of any form, for the reasons Dave has already stated, or decide that you are going to allow everything. I lean toward the first, myself. And if that is the course they choose, there should be no exceptions.

I do not disagree. However, it shouldn't be that difficult to notice if the coach is using the "device" for something other than keeping score.

The crux of this change that was discussed in committee seemed to lean toward video. Of course, we have all seen or heard about morons wanting to show the umpire a video of a play for either a ruling or intimidation purposes. OTOH, I could see the point concerning communications with outside concerns. While I believe stealing and interpreting signals is part of any game strategy, it should be within the confines of the field, not with the help of someone posted on top of a hill 200 yds away with high-power binoculars.

Yes, I know how ridiculous that sounds, but who on here that has been around a while would put that past some coaches/parents you have encountered?

During a game, how much do you, or any of us, ever notice what a coach is doing? If they are using their iPhone with a scoring app to stay within the strictest confines of the rule, how can we notice if they send a text or email?
If they have their scoring device out there, and it is, as Dave suggested, an iPad, are you going to know whether or not they are communicating online with anyother individual, say on the hill 200 ft away with high powered binoculars? No....to prevent any communication, it is easier just to do away with all electronic devices. Paper and pen/pencil have worked well for ages, if score keeping is all that they are interested in.

I use an iPod Touch with the iScore app (great program for under $5). What I have found is while it is pretty easy to use, it does have it problems (glare) and in a fast moving game to be using it on the field is too consuming.

I'd like to know if any of you have seen this "Clicker" app for iPod/iPhone? :D

http://itunes.apple.com/us/app/ump-c...349703143?mt=8

[IMG]<a href="http://s218.photobucket.com/albums/cc201/pridefpsb17/Misc%20Stuff/?action=view&current=mzlwhkhlhck480x480-75.jpg" target="_blank"><img src="http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc201/pridefpsb17/Misc%20Stuff/mzlwhkhlhck480x480-75.jpg" border="0" alt="Umpire Clicker"></a>[/IMG]

Even if I had this app, I would not want to put it on a phone that has a base cost in the hundreds of dollars while I'm on the field. :D

And even if they COULD communicate with someone else on the field, the latency of the network would prevent any useful information from reaching the right people in time. Granted, network latency is constantly improving, but in a game situation, even a <1ms latency isn't enough to be of any benefit. Not to mention the fact that the devices then need to process and render whatever signals have been received.

In short, using these devices as a covert means of communicating around the field is, in all honesty, quite useless and futile (at this time).

As for Mike's comment regarding the recording of plays, that's always going to exist, whether ASA prohibits video equipment in dugouts or not. There's ALWAYS going to be some (hot) mom in the stands with a camcorder who's more than willing to show you her footage.

While text and email are considerations, let us not forget about blue tooth earpieces. I think this more likely. I witnessed it while off the field (observing the "talker"), and it took me a few minutes to realize who he is talking to.

Same with the fantastic countdown timer application that came standard on my iPod Touch. It's simple to use, has a nice loud buzzer and would be perfect for using in timed games- if I didn't have to expose my shiny new iPod to dirt, sweat or a possible stray pitch!

Taking the rule and RS as written, the following are prohibited:

• cell phones
• head phones or ear phone
• other wireless communications devices (blue tooth and wifi are communications technologies, so devices with this technology are prohibited)
• other audio or video equipment

The only electronic device allowed is an electronic scorebook. It does not say that a communications devices with a scorebook app is legal. It is still a communications device, and hence illegal.

This means that smartphones (iPhone, Driod, Blackberry, etc.) are prohibited because they are communications devices, regardless of what apps are on the device.

I'm not sure you can buy electronic scorebooks that are not also communications devices, but that would seem to be all that is legal.

And with bluetooth devices getting smaller and smaller, it's conceivable that someone could have a bluetooth earpiece that's hardly noticeable with a cell phone hidden in the dugout. Bluetooth has a range of over 30 feet.

You beat me to it. A phone or camera is still a phone or a camera. The fact that it has some non-approved attachment means it cannot be legal unless on the "Approved Electonic Equipment List" that you can try to find on the ASA web site. :rolleyes:

You might want to check closer if you see the coach talking into his sleeve! :D

if an coach has an electronic communications device because he/she is an emergency response professional, then he/she is allowed to have or wear it.

ASA 4.7.5 does not support this.

Remember, these rules are for championship play, not local leagues. If you want to allow this in local Tuesday night league play, that's your prerogative. I would only ask to make sure that said radio does not pose a distraction to other players.

But as far as ASA is concerned with respect to Championship play, this is not allowed.

Period.

yeah, I gotta read better. I didn't even notice the ASA in the subject till you pointed to it. I was thinking FED.

This was brought to the attension of the SoCal UIC at the Rules Clinic. He stated as long as the Iphone was beening used as a scorebook it is legal.

Which is the exact opposite the region 7 UIC said.

he broke it down pretty simply: If the electronic score-keeping device had the ability to communicate in any way to another device or could also take video, it should not be allowed.

a 'PDA' as long as it did not have the ability above would be legal.

Ok so when I come out to Region 7 No iphone.l When you come out to Region 14 Yes iphone. But let's not forget Socal is the Fastpitch mecca. :D

I agree, and there will be no exceptions. And I am not concerned about the communications as much as I am the bulkiness and danger to others should they get involved in a play. If it is small, like a cell phone, pager, etc. they can keep it in their pocket where the umpire cannot see it. If it goes off and they need to respond, that individual may elect to leave the field and respond accordingly.

I deal with police, firefighters and EMTs all the time on the field. If the need to have communications equipment, someone on the bench can monitor it while they elect to enter the field.

If they have a problem with that, I guess they shouldn't have planned to be on the field while they were working.

Around most of small town America the firefighters and EMT's are volunteers. They aren't "working". They're on call. They go about their daily routines untill the beeper beeps.

If we're ONLY talking Tuesday night rec league, I have no problem with allowing an on-call emergency services worker keep his radio on his belt so long as:

1 - It doesn't cause any major distractions on the field (ie., constant chatter)
2 - It doesn't pose any safety problems for anyone.

Most of these radios are now pretty small. I can't imagine the radios I've seen causing any problems on the field, and the wearer can turn it down pretty easily.

Common sense needs to be applied here. By rule, would I be justified in having him remove it from the field? Yes. Am I going to ask an emergency services worker to do so? If the two conditions above are met, my answer is no, I won't ask him/her to remove the radio.

Yes, that is mainly to I am referring. But it really doesn't make any difference to the thread.

Again, if it is that small, it can go in their pocket where the umpire cannot see it to rule upon....

In my area, a radio is kept in the dugout and can be heard by the players on that side of the infield.

Common sense should tell the umpire to insure the safety of other participants. Would it be a rarity if someone was? Absolutely. Is that a reason to forego the rules? I don't think so.

BTW, if you are in an area where police officers are required to be armed at all times, do you let them on the field with a sidearm? Of course, you don't. Why? Because common sense tells you that doing so places the other players in danger.

A sidearm is a deadly weapon. I've yet to see a radio in .40 S&W, but call me when you see one. I'd love to test it out on the range. :D

In leagues, we let plenty of rules slide all the time. Do we force the players to all wear 100% matching uniforms? Tuck in their shirts? Keep from stepping out of the dugout for a smoke? No. Are these rules always in writing? No, but we're exercising common sense. The leagues here have made it clear to us that the emphasis is on participation, not solely on competition.

ASA rules are written for ASA championship play, not for Tuesday night rec league. So if the tempo set by the league is that we should focus more on participation while maintaining safety and the integrity of the game, AND the radio does not pose any safety threat (unlike a loaded sidearm), I see no problem with letting someone like an EMT keep the radio on his person if he's on call. I may ask him if he could put it in the dugout, and I could easily sell him on the idea. He'll probably comply, but I won't push that issue. There's wiggle room.

If it's an ASA tourney, on the other hand, then there is no wiggle room.

It is a hard, protruding item that is not part of the uniform or game equipment. IMJ, it is just as dangerous as a radio attached to a belt. Understand, I'm beyond the communications point, but items not allowed in the coaching box in general.And I do understand the difference between championship play and local ball. However, I've never played or umpired in any league that did not use championship play rules with specific amendments. However, the default was always the rule book.

I'm sensing that there is a tendency here to give firefighters/EMTs special treatment. I don't buy it. For that matter, wouldn't it make sense to be more cognizant of and more stringent in the enforcement of the rules involving player's safety at the rec level than in a highly competitive atmosphere?

I suspect most emergency response professionals can get away with just setting down their device, but doctors have a special predicament.

doctors are bound by doctor-patient privilege. they can't have so-and-so's cancer status, or procedure being announced or being fielded by anyone, so they might not want to put down that cell phone w/ push-to-talk feature. they could find themselves in liable and in legal hot water over a very small careless leak of information.

So what's a clipboard? :)

And that's the case here as well. However, as I said before, the emphasis around here is more on participation and less on the strict letter of the rule. Uniform rules are completely relaxed, no one gets in a twist if a player steps out of the dugout for a smoke, etc. The leagues here have every right to use ASA rules, then adapt the tempo to their liking. This is what they want, so that's what they get.

Well, we're now talking about two different things here: communication devices and safety issues. Safety issues should always be addressed when the umpire identifies one, but the rule regarding communications equipment on the field says nothing about safety. It's a logical extension, yes, and one worthy of our attention. However, if I don't judge the alert radio to be a safety issue, then what's the issue?

I'm not giving EMTs or firefighters special status here. I'm using their example because A) they came to mind first and B) they're more likely than anyone else to have such a device required by their jobs.

Something that IS part of the game and allowed by rule that will fly away when hit and IS NOT something that is excluded by rule that is strapped to the body which means there is minimal or any give when another body makes contact.

Yeah, I get local rules. I have been dealing with local rules for 44 years now. I am also aware of the participation angle. This isn't brain surgery and, no, I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. And if you want to hang your hat on it, that's fine. But I don't buy it.

I am also familiar with ASA Rule 12, It is no brainer since ASA, like every other softball sanctioning body, is providing sanctioning and a suggested set of rules, not a parenting and babysitting service, though some would believe many of the participants need just that.

However, are not most "participation"-oriented rules enacted for safety reasons? No metal spikes, no sliding, no double-wall bats and even in some cases, no permanent bases. And before you say it, I really don't care what is or isn't in your area, these are exceptions in many local rules.

So, the participating Lil' Johnnie cannot make it to work the next couple of days because he sustained a concussion when he tripped over 3B and hit is head on the coach's (Asst. Fire Chief) radio which was attached to his belt.

You want to allow items for participation purposes that are specifically excluded by rule and may be a safety issue, yet you have a problem with participants not wearing their sunglasses on their faces. If certain rules want to be amended, they need to be published.

Yes, I'm talking safety because while you choosing to ignore the "communication" issue (4.7.C.5), you may overlooking 4.7.C.1 which specifically states what a coach may have in the coach's box. Of course, I'm not going to ask them to empty their pockets which is where any device necessary to another job may be kept. For that matter, I'm not going to ask them to open a windbreaker or light jacket to see what is under it, either.

If your local league wants to amend/adjust the rules to allow certain things, that is fine, but it is their responsibility to address so you do not intentionally overlook something that could land you in court just because that is what the players may want.

If the coach starts talking into their shoes, I'm immediately looking for secret agent Maxwell Smart.:)

I heard it was okay as long as the shoe was sold by ASA :rolleyes: :D

apple ipad
 

it's out, and here's an app already.

iScore Baseball - Product Info

Okay, I'll bite.

In this case, I don't consider the iPad a communication device. Knowing the product, I would classify it more as an electronic scorekeeping device. I really don't see how an iPad could effectively be used to gain any upper hand over another team.

If there is a wifi signal nearby, any number of ways are available to communicate. Eventually (probably the eyePad 3G ;)), it will connect to cell phone service, as well. But, if some coach is dumb enough to take a $700 electronic device out into the playing field, well ...

So would you classify this as a communication device? Or an electronic scorebook?

The iPad can't make any phone calls, send text messages, nor does it have any camera functions.

Again, the lines between certain devices are now becoming increasingly blurred, and I predict it won't be long (less than 2 years) before all devices that are strictly 100% electronic scorebooks will cease to exist in favor of software-based development.

The new ASA rule doesn't mention "communication device"... it says, "electronic device", which it most certainly is. It allows an exception for a scorekeeping device, which is most certainly is not. It is a computing device that can be used for scorekeeping, as well as for lots of other things, including accessing the internet and all that comes with that. The eyePad is presently more limited than your typical smart phone in its ability to access the internet from your random ball field, since it needs to be in range of a wifi signal, but I expect Lord Jobs to address that with the next revision.

As to what I would allow, I'd be inclined to take the rule for what it says and not try to interpret in too loosely... But, I expect I'll be calling very few ASA games this year (local sanctioning politics, etc.).

hi dave, thanks for biting me. :p

the ipad is really a tablet pda, but a really big fast one, and only has wifi capabilities in this first release, but another release will come out soon that could make calls thru a 3G or 4G wireless data service, so in essence, it could send text messages, which would qualify it as a communications device.

technically speaking, setting up a mobile wifi point is now rather easy.

Even without the ability to text or make calls, the iPad can still send emails which could be read on any phone or computing device, therefore making it capable now of communicating.

i've got enough to worry about. If I can see it, i might under the proper circumstances gently remind the coach about the rule but i'm not going inside their pockets, under their sleeves to check...the first rule of all umpiring should be "don't go looking for trouble".

Younger more tech savvy umpires will probably let iphones slide more. The tournament commissioner could ask coaches with iphones to remove their sim cards and deposit the sim cards with the commish. i'm sure there's no wifi access points around ballparks, unless a coach hides a mi-fi device in an equipment bag...

Don't know about the rest of the world, but in the US, iPhones do not have removable SIM cards.

Some Android phones on certain carriers, however, may have removable SIM cards, but they may also still have wireless (a-la 802.11b or 802.11g).

You might go looking for a sense of humor, too. :rolleyes:

SIM cards are only used with GSM carriers (in the USA, AT&T, T-Mobile). They are not used with CDMA carriers (in the USA, Verizon, Sprint).

I got a world phone. it's cdma and tdma (gsm). it's a mutli-band phone that can do cdma (verzion/sprint) as well as inserting a sim card and using att or tmobile. when I got the phone, it had a verizon gsm sim card in it for world roaming travel, but I got it sim unlocked and can switch from verizon to tmobile (I'm using a tmobile prepaid sim card). I think only HTC makes those world phones at the moment.

So-called "world phones" are marketed by CDMA companies (such as Verizon) so their customers can use their native CDMA service in the USA and GSM service internationally. Several quad band GSM / dual band CDMA phones are currently being sold by Verizon, for example, from a variety of manufacturers including Samsung, RIM, HTC, and PCD. None of this changes the fact that Verizon is a CDMA service and the SIM card is only for GSM service.

BTW, NCASA, I got my Droid last month. Very happy with it.

Good stuff, isn't it? I've got the PDF version of the rules on mine. :D

Where can one get PDF versions of ASA and NFHS rules?

Thanx.

Nice idea. Not sure how to get the PDF on it in a way I can access it, though. My ASA PDF is also quite old.