Obstruction ruling

[DTQ_Blue]

Batter hits sharp line drive base hit toward F7 who doesn't cleanly pick it up and boots it into the gap. F3 is in runners way rounding 1B, BR slows down and has grazing contact with F3 as F3 belatedly tries to get out of the basepath. BR continues to 2B and rounds it and slows down to stop. At this time F7 has the ball and 1B coach seeing my left arm out yells "keep going." BR restarts toward 3B and is out by at least 10 feet. How do you rule? Award 3B or not?

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by DTQ_Blue

Batter hits sharp line drive base hit toward F7 who doesn't cleanly pick it up and boots it into the gap. F3 is in runners way rounding 1B, BR slows down and has grazing contact with F3 as F3 belatedly tries to get out of the basepath. BR continues to 2B and rounds it and slows down to stop. At this time F7 has the ball and 1B coach seeing my left arm out yells "keep going." BR restarts toward 3B and is out by at least 10 feet. How do you rule? Award 3B or not?

Cannot say. Only you know the answer to the question. To what base did you initially protect the runner?

As an observer, if I saw the DDB signal still AFTER the runner passes 2B, it would probably be a valid assumption that the runner was protected to, at least, 3B.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Cannot say. Only you know the answer to the question. To what base did you initially protect the runner?

As an observer, if I saw the DDB signal still AFTER the runner passes 2B, it would probably be a valid assumption that the runner was protected to, at least, 3B.

Correct. The mechanic used to be to hold the DDB signal until the runner was no longer protected. The coach, seeing this, probably assumed you were continuing to protect the runner to 3B.

Now, the mechanic is to simply hold the DDB signal long enough that someone should have seen it, as well as to verbalize "obstruction."

And as Mike said, it's your call. If you think the runner would have made it to 3B had there been no obstruction, give them 3B.

[KJUmp]

Mike,

In ASA, are we to advance that runner who was between 2nd&3rd solely on the basis of "in our judgement" they would have gotten to 3rd, OR do we awarded them 3rd only if they are more than half-way to 3rd?

I'm just not clear on the what the proper approved ruling/interp is under ASA vs. other rule sets.
Thanx

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Mike,

In ASA, are we to advance that runner who was between 2nd&3rd solely on the basis of "in our judgement" they would have gotten to 3rd, OR do we awarded them 3rd only if they are more than half-way to 3rd?

I'm just not clear on the what the proper approved ruling/interp is under ASA vs. other rule sets.
Thanx

In ASA, it is umpire's judgment.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Mike,

In ASA, are we to advance that runner who was between 2nd&3rd solely on the basis of "in our judgement" they would have gotten to 3rd, OR do we awarded them 3rd only if they are more than half-way to 3rd?

I'm just not clear on the what the proper approved ruling/interp is under ASA vs. other rule sets.
Thanx

I think you are confusing different issues.

The obstructed runner is ALWAYS awarded the base the umpire judges the runner would have reached if not obstructed. That decision is to be made at the time of the obstruction, and is not subject to subsequent plays or misplays.

If/when an obstructed runner is put out between the bases obstructed, or prior to the protected base (the test is BOTH, not either/or), THEN you declare a dead ball, award the obstructed runner the appropriate base, and judge OTHER runners based on the halfway rule at the time of the dead ball (although, they cannot force the obstructed runner either forward or backwards). The obstructed runner can push another runner, but not vice versa.

With the sole exception of the NCAA special "rounding or returning" obstruction rule, I believe all of the above is the same in NFHS and NCAA.

[KJUmp]

Steve,
I probably worded the question poorly. I was asking about the non-obstructed runner in a sitch where you have a DBO on another runner.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by KJUmp

Steve,
I probably worded the question poorly. I was asking about the non-obstructed runner in a sitch where you have a DBO on another runner.

Reread Steve's post especially where he has the word OTHER in caps.

[rwest]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I think you are confusing different issues.

The obstructed runner is ALWAYS awarded the base the umpire judges the runner would have reached if not obstructed. That decision is to be made at the time of the obstruction, and is not subject to subsequent plays or misplays.

If/when an obstructed runner is put out between the bases obstructed, or prior to the protected base (the test is BOTH, not either/or), THEN you declare a dead ball, award the obstructed runner the appropriate base, and judge OTHER runners based on the halfway rule at the time of the dead ball (although, they cannot force the obstructed runner either forward or backwards). The obstructed runner can push another runner, but not vice versa.

With the sole exception of the NCAA special "rounding or returning" obstruction rule, I believe all of the above is the same in NFHS and NCAA.

Steve,

In all the clinics I've been to, I've never heard this halfway rule in regards to awarding bases to NON-Obstructed runners. Where does this mechanic come from?

[youngump]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

I
If/when an obstructed runner is put out between the bases obstructed, or prior to the protected base (the test is BOTH, not either/or)

That clause reads a little ambiguously. My natural reading would be to describe the test as one or the other but not both. To make sure we're on the same page:

R1 obstructed between 1st and 2nd but only protected to first. Dead ball if tagged anywhere behind 2nd (prior to the protected base means up to 1st [though why they'd retreat is beyond me] / between the obstructed bases means up to second)

R1 obstructed between 1st and 2nd but protected to third. Dead ball if tagged anywhere behind 2nd (prior to the protected base gets them all the way to third).

That sound right?
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[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by youngump

That clause reads a little ambiguously. My natural reading would be to describe the test as one or the other but not both. To make sure we're on the same page:

R1 obstructed between 1st and 2nd but only protected to first. Dead ball if tagged anywhere behind 2nd (prior to the protected base means up to 1st [though why they'd retreat is beyond me] / between the obstructed bases means up to second)

R1 obstructed between 1st and 2nd but protected to third. Dead ball if tagged anywhere behind 2nd (prior to the protected base gets them all the way to third).

That sound right?

Here's what I was trying to say, without being overly wordy. If obstructed between 1st and 2nd, cannot be out (other than book exceptions) between 1st and 2nd, no matter how far you are protecting, be it 1st, 2nd, or 3rd. Umpires seem to forget that runners can overrun protection (if only protected to first on obstruction between 1st and 2nd, for example) and STILL be protected between 1st and 2nd, even if they return safely to 1st, and then take off again during the same play sequence. Both forms of protection are STILL intact, and the "between two bases" protection is only negated if there is an interim play on ANOTHER runner (again, excepting the missed base, interference, or passing another runner).

rwest, there is, to my knowledge, no written direction to use the halfway standard; but, when I have asked NUS members, that is the direction I have been given, in order to fairly NOT penalize the other runners who are actively attempting to advance when the obstructed runner is apparently put out. More than halfway, one can assume they would likely have been able to advance, less than halfway, then no. Since it isn't (to my knowledge) a written directive, I suspect one should also use his judgment regarding an obviously slow or obviously quick runner, that may or may not have advanced safely. Our job there is to use our best judgment to negate the effect of the obstruction.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Up to and including the 2004 POEs on Obstruction:

"If other runners are advancing when an umpire calls time following a play on an obstructed runner, a rule of thumb for placement of the other runners is: If they have not reached half way to the next base, they must return to the previous base. However, if they have advanced over half way, they are allowed to advance to the next base."

If recollection serves me correctly, at that point it was considered redundant as they wanted the umpire's judgment to determine where to place runners affected by the OBS call and stopping an advancing runner due to killing the ball to rule on an obstruction did affect the runner advancing at the time.