Taping over the knob (ASA)
 

This has been brought up at a couple of our clinics, and the room was divided.

ASA 3-1-B states:
There are those who believe that tape may be ON the safety knob (ie., the sides), but can't go OVER and completely cover the knob. There are others (and I'm included) who believe that the rule, as written, does not prohibit putting tape over the knob in any particular fashion whatsoever.

The concern is a valid one: bat doctors often go in through the safety knob to remove the safety rod, endload bats, or do other wonderful things to the bat. Taping over the safety knob can hide the signs that a bat has been doctored, potentially putting players at risk.

However, I maintain that with the rule written in its current form, there is nothing that we can do to prohibit taping over the knob.

What say you all?

Taping over the knob has been and still is completely legal. Nothing new here.

Since the knob was one to the two cited primary entrance points to alter a bat, a change in the rule was proposed to eliminate taping the knob two years ago and never made it out of any committee. The author of the change noted that allowing the knob to be taped permitted concealment of unauthorized access to the inside of the bat.

I agree, but the frustrating thing is that I'm still hearing that this is illegal from various sources. Even heard an umpire say so at a National. Those who are "on the fence" say that the rule is "vague."

It's not vague. It's in black and white.

ask yourself how taping over a knob can be of any advantage or harm, or could affect play.

Bottom line; no matter what they would like the rule to read, there can be safety tape on the knob. Anyone that thinks it is vague simply is looking to justify reading something into the rule that isn't there. It doesn't have any exclusion or limit; they can put safety tape on the knob. Some, a little, a lot.

Sure, the bat doctors can go in that end, and the tape might cover that. You might note that the other point of entry still requires an endcap; using the same logic, we should keep that endcap off so we can see if it has doctored there, too. But the rule is equally clear on that; to be considered legal, the endcap must be on, and appear to have been on since the factory.

I rarely ask myself any such question about any aspect of the game. I have heard that logic used too many times to justify not making a call that really should have been made. My concern is what do the rules of the association I am working for say is proper or improper.

it's possible that a player innocently taped up a loose knob thinking it's fine to do so. I think they make those rules to limit legal liability of us umpires, assuming, tape = hiding something underneath. even if we ask players to remove the original manufacturers grip, which a good bat doctor would put back undetectable, do most umpires really know what is underneath? most doctoring occurs thru the endcap anyways.

umpiring is always done with judgment, not void of it. why don't you ask questions? last year, knobcuffs where illegal. this year, it's all good. someone asked some questions, hence the change.

I don't believe that an association would write a rule intended to keep the "big, bad umpire" from abusing their power and strip search players' bats. If they're worried about umpires abusing their powers in this fashion, they'd get them the hell off of the field and find someone with a little more common sense.

ASA drew the line in the sand with respect to taping the safety knob. It's allowed.

And yes, I have a pretty good idea what's underneath a stock grip. Varies from model to model.

most, not all. I wouldn't take it personally, dave. just because I said most have never taken off a grip, doesn't mean you haven't.

I've been doing this too long to take anything anyone says personally. ;)

Unless, of course, you make it personal.

Obviously you missed the entire gist of my comment. I did not say "don't ask questions," or "I never ask any questions."

But...that's okay that you didn't get it.

what I meant was, and I'll wager, most umps have never seen a bat with the original grip off to know what to look for. that's all I meant. I didn't mean to suggest that you would or wouldn't know if that's how it came off to you.

what I missed, was why you said, "I rarely ask myself any such question about any aspect of the game". maybe I'm wrong, but that seems robotic to take rules at face value. I think asking and questioning is healthy for the game. it's a dynamic game that keeps changing.

But it should not change from game to game without it being in writing beforehand.

ASA edits the rules. We don't. If you want a rule change, propose it later this fall or in your local leagues. Until then, stick with the rules AS WRITTEN, or you'll end up floating up $h1t creek without a paddle.

the rules are the rules. some umpires don't even check bats.

what part of the rule are you suggesting is being changed by "me", as in, if "I" want to change the rules? I mentioned questioning rules is healthy, enforcing rules is required.

have you had your coffee today?

Oh, I don't know... Perhaps this portion:
Seems to imply that you're willing to take a few more liberties than you should. Maybe I'm wrong, but you're new here, so expect a lack of trust from us until we get to know you.

that seems to be your problem, not mine. this is a forum, not a ball field.
on a ball field, the one to distrust is the partner that would throw another fellow umpire under the bus. that's who I distrust.

This is the internet, not the field. Anyone can come here and say whatever so new posters have to build credibility. If they really know about umpiring it will eventually show.

correct, this is a forum, and used for discussion. I asked how one thinks taping knobs might affect the game. same line of questioning as the poll.

And from the very first post, I answered that question. But since you missed it, I will repeat.

Bat doctors will gain entry to the insides of a bat via two routes: the end cap or the safety knob. In doing so, they end up causing visible damage to the safety knob, and they cover up the evidence by using safety tape.

For that specific reason, there are those who believe that taping over the safety knob should not be allowed.

Clear enough?

no, I saw it, and if you read my replies, I agreed. other than doctoring, or a loose knob, there's really no legit reason (other than legality) to worry about tape on the knob that I can think of. that's why I followed with a rhetorical question.

there are many replies to me, all at the same time from all angles, and for reasons having nothing really to do with answering what I posted, so I got distracted and didn't acknowledge your post directly. I was busy dealing with the gang mentality.

but I agreed w/ everything you wrote. unless I can add to the agreeing, I usually don't just post to agree. so I made a comment in another direction and at another angle to move the discussion forward, that is all. I am making no attempt to ignore your initial post or be snide towards it. if you feel that, please reread. I assure you, there is no intention there remarking against your OP on my part whatsoever, and any impression of such unintentional.

have you had coffee yet?

And that specific reason was rejected by ASA, so what is so hard for your guys to accept?

Uhhh... I do accept it, Mike. :)

At no point in time have I ever said that covering the safety knob is illegal. All I have said was that the concern was valid, but that's where it ends. Period.

I didn't say you, I said "your guys"

No comments about my vision, please... :D

I really don't know what their deal is. They're looking for something that just isn't there.

Or it is there and someone covered it up with tape :D

Crap, I've got enough to worry about with bat doctors. Now I've gotta worry about rule book doctors? :eek:

Dave, check PM

No, Mike, I don't want to buy any Girl Scout Cookies... :D

Damn, what am I going to do with all these Trefoils?

Send them to Seattle Metro. We have a meeting coming up, and could use some cookies.



:)

Ok. How would you rule if the ball is intentionally put into play by the knob of a bat that has been taped over?

Paul

Same as if the ball is put into play if hit off the tape on the handle of the bat, fair or foul, maybe dead, depending upon what happened with the ball.

Mike's point is that while the hands are not part of the bat, the knob is still part of the bat.

However, you'd have to be damn certain that the ball did not touch any part of the player's body (ie. hands, wrists, sleeves, etc.) before you rule the ball live.

":DYouse guys"

:D