Now Mike,

I never advocated " knowlingly sticking to a wrong call" now did I?

What I said was if you had the evidence to make a judgement stick with it. Further, I said if you do not have the evidence to make a judgement on the call, ask for help before you announce a judgement that may be in error.

That is not sticking with a wrong call. That is not making the wrong call in the first place.

I also never advocated letting hubris prevent the umpires from working as a team. I just disagree with the premises that one should allow judgement calls to be routinely reversed on simple plays. I'm not above getting help or even giving up a call if the need arises. (It did this past weekend. R3, I'm in C. 2 outs. Drag bunt charged by F1 and F3, F4 covers 1st, as F3 fields ball I move in and set up for banger at 1st. Large economy size F1 moves directly between my position and 1st just as BR and ball arrive. I glance to PU who has lined up R3's touch of home and the play at 1st. Before I make any call, I ask him "Do you have a call at 1st?" He nods yes and I point to him to make the call. Had he not had a call, I would have called safe and took all the heat on the call from the defensive coach. I would not, and will not, make the call and then put my partner in a position of having to possibly overrule my call and take my heat.)

I stand by my ask before and not after statement. It has stood me well in the past and I expect it will do so in the future. I guess we will just have to disagree on this, Mike.

Roger Greene

And, Roger, I didn't address you specifically in my last post, did I?

But now that you raised the issue, you are advocating making a call you believed to be correct and refusing to admit the possibility that the basis on which you based your judgment may be flawed. Nor did I ever say this function should become routine, it is not. Unlike the checked swing, just because they ask, doesn't mean I'm going to request help.

Nor did I suggest you make a call you didn't see, did I? The thread was dealing specifically with a clear look at a call from a position which did not allow the best angle.

In you example above, there is no heat to take. You simply tell the coach that Moose stepped into your line of view and you are not going to guess a player out.

Quote:

I would not, and will not, make the call and then put my partner in a position of having to possibly overrule my call and take my heat.

This statement makes me feel that you are walking around with a baseball mentality. An umpire's partner NEVER overrules his call and is never asked to do so. When an umpire seeks help, the conversation should always be private. The umpire is not seeking a reversal or a bail-out. S/he is only asking for information. If his/her partner is a good umpire, they will offer exactly what they saw and no more unless requested. At that point, the umpires should separate, the umpire who made the call should distance him/herself from their partner and make a final ruling.

At no point is your partner "overruling" or passing judgment on your call, therefore, there is no heat for your partner to take.

We will obviously disagree on this one.

Mike,
I'll take that a a complement, even if you didn't mean it that way! :D

Roger Greene

In this particular situation, the PU is watching the runner(s) cross the plate, so why would he be looking for a pulled foot? Think about it. I think the out call should stand and with it being the 3rd and a force out, I say "turn 'em over".

Mike I appreciate your your last post. I also belive the C postion in FP is a poor potion for that call at first. With a 1st baseperson that has a good strech for the ball it can be easy for her to drag the base foot of the bag with no tale tale signs it has left the bag and a good one knows the BU could never see this. I am and hope to never be to good to go for help in this type of sit though if I am 100% sure in my mind the call is correct I am not going for help I belive that can invite trouble and coachs asking for help on ever call I make. Going for help at the right time and sit is why we have partners and will provide more good will with coachs they not. I had a HS coach try to convince me that they had changed the rules this year on putting someone on 1st without pitching to them. Didn't go for it and he ask for me to check with partner and I would not since I knew this was not correct. After the game coach came up smiling and said that that had worked the day before.

Roger,

It wasn't meant to be disparaging, but that to which I have constantly run into when discussing situations with baseball umpires and NFHS-only softball umpires, many of which developed from a baseball association.

Just like the missed plate, missed tag at home. ASA softball has a criteria that this is two different calls while baseball considers it a no call until one or the other actually do something. Most of the baseball umpires consider ASA's method to be a sign of weakness as the umpire has reversed his call. When I try to explain that a runner is considered to have touched the base when passing it and the second half is just an appeal play, they tell me it's a stupid way to call ball.

I did baseball for more than 20 years and have done softball for about 14. I consider ASA's rules and mechanics much more logical and will stick with them.

Thanks,

People,
What a great discussion from obviously experienced umps. This is what this board is about and is great. We have all been in the C position and had to make the call Terry1 made and it is tough. Seems to me this is one of the 5% times that the two man system angles fail.

I really do not like to work with umps that ask me to repeat their call rather than what I see (e.g checked swing). For the vast majority, the softball coaches are more reasonable about the occassional wrong call than baseball coaches. I once had a baseball coach literally in my face about a dropped third strike I missed on the second batter and second out of the top of the first inning. (They won the game on a mercy rule.)

Keep the posts coming.


[Edited by Larry Wolfe on Aug 31st, 2002 at 09:09 AM]

The throw was in time, did he pull the foot?
 

I would have immediately ask the PU if there was any question in my mind. In this situation I would not have gone for help after making the call. I also relize how easy it is to say this after the game is over and I can stop and think about it. The good thing is that the call was made correctly and nobody was killed. (always a plus)