Help me out here.

[whiskers_ump]

OK,

I know this is the softball board. However, I have a LL baseball
question and I don't and have not had a LL BB Rule Book in awhile.
During the game the other nite when the 1B Umpire threw the red flag
when runner on 1St
left early, I suddenly again remembered another reason I am calling strictly softball.
I know the list of what could happened in certain situations on
the leaving early, is probably fairly lengthly but what if batter hits
homer and runner left early. Is there no penalty?
Can't really see penaltizing the batter, cause he merely hit the ball.
Would the runner's [the one on 1st] run have counted? BB needs to
simplify that rule, and call the kid out, just like it is done in
the real game. Help me out here guys...Getting a lot of heat from
my granddaughter for not knowing the rule, when "after all PaPa you are
an umpire.


glen

BTW Bob [bluezebra] be gentle, I know its a dumb question, but I gotta know.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

The batter is given the value of the hit as I recall............

since the leaving early penalty did not effect (or should that be affect) the outcome of the play..........there would be no penalty.........

If however.........the runner leaving early from 1st could have easily made it to 3rd........even without leaving early............after the BR singles..........he gets moved back to 2nd........

There lies the penalty............

Maybe Bob (or another LL umpire) could explain the "Poof" rule to us.........

This is where a runner from third who leaves early goes........."POOF" and cannot score........

Joel

[whiskers_ump]

Originally posted by Gulf Coast Blue
The batter is given the value of the hit as I recall............

since the leaving early penalty did not effect (or should that be affect) the outcome of the play..........there would be no penalty.........

If however.........the runner leaving early from 1st could have easily made it to 3rd........even without leaving early............after the BR singles..........he gets moved back to 2nd........

There lies the penalty............

Maybe Bob (or another LL umpire) could explain the "Poof" rule to us.........

This is where a runner from third who leaves early goes........."POOF" and cannot score........

Joel

"POOF"
I knew there was, or thought I knew that was a "poof" rule
involved somewhere. Thanks


glen

[bluezebra]

"BTW Bob [bluezebra] be gentle, I know its a dumb question, but I gotta know."

Glen:

We belong to the same fraternity, the International Order of Grandfathers. I would never be harsh to a frat bro. And to one, who like I, is called Papa.

Besides, I worked with LL umps with 25 years experience who didn't understand the leave early rule.

Bob

[WestMichBlue]

this is what I remember. The easiest way to visualize the rule is to always return the offending runner to the last unoccupied base. So if the offending runner scores, and following runners are camped on 1st and 2nd, the run is removed and the runner returned to 3rd. In the LL game on TV, the batter-runner was put out so 1st was open and the offending runner was sent back to first. (What a waste of a good sacrifice bunt!)

The "poof" rule I believe occurs when bases are loaded, a runner on third leaves early, AND the batter is put out at first. The other two runners have legitimately moved up and there is no open base. The offending runner is simply removed from the bases and his run is nullified. No out - just Poof! (The assumption being that had he not left early the defense could have put him out at home; thus still one out on play and no run scored. But offense now only has two runners on base rather than three.)

[kono]

Here is the rule in all its glory. No wonder I like the lookback rule so much

-Kono

RULE 7.13
MAJOR, MINOR, TEE BALL BASEBALL

When a pitcher is in contact with the pitcherÂ’s plate and in possession of the ball and the catcher is in the catcherÂ’s box ready to receive delivery of ball, base runners shall not leave their bases until the ball has been delivered and has reached the batter.

The violation by one base runner shall affect all other base runners -

(a) When a base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter does not hit the ball, the runner is permitted to continue, If a play is made on the runner and the runner is out, the out stands. If said runner reaches safely the base to which the runner is advancing, that runner must be returned to the base occupied before the pitch was made, and no out results',

(b) When a base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter hits the ball, the base runner or runners are permitted to continue. If a play is made and the runner or runners are put out, the out or outs will stand. If not put out, the runner or runners must return to the original base or bases or to the unoccupied base nearest the one that was left; In no event shall the batter advance beyond first base on a single or error, second base on a double or third base on a triple. The umpire-in-chief shall determine the base value of the hit ball.

(c) When any base runner leaves the base before the pitched ball has reached the batter and the batter bunts or hits a ball within the infield, no run shall be allowed to score If three runners were on the bases and the batter reaches first base safely, each runner shall advance to the base beyond the one they occupied at the start of the play except the runner who occupied third base, which runner shall be removed from the base without a run being scored.

EXCEPTION: If at the conclusion of the play there is an open base, paragraphs (a) and (b) will apply.

EXAMPLES:
1. Runner on first leaves too soon, batter reaches first safely, runner goes to second.
2. Runner on second leaves too soon, batter reaches first safely, runner returns to second.
3. Runner on third leaves too soon, batter reaches first safely, runner returns to third.
4. Runner on first leaves too soon, batter hits clean double, runner goes to third only.
5. Runner on second leaves too soon, batter hits clean double, runner goes to third only.
6. Runner on third leaves too soon, batter hits clean double, runner returns to third.
7. All runners on base will be allowed to score when the batter hits a clean triple or home run, regardless of whether any runner left too soon.
8. Runners on first and second, either leave too soon, batter reaches first safely, runners go to second and third.
9. Runners on first and second, either leaves too soon, batter hits clean double, runner on first goes to third, runner on second scores.
10, Runners on first and third, either leaves too soon, batter reaches first safely, runner on first goes to second, runner on third remains there.
11. Runners on first and third, either leaves too soon, batter hits a clean double, runner on first goes to third, runner on third scores.
12. Runners on second and third, either leaves too soon, batter reaches first safely, neither runner can advance.
13. Runners on second and third, either leaves too soon, batter hits a clean double, runner on third scores, runner on second goes to third.
14. Runners on first, second and third, any runner leaves too soon, batter hits clean double, runners on second, third score, runner on first goes to third.
15. Bases full, any runner leaves too soon, batter reaches first safely on any ball bunted or hit within the infield, all runners advance one base except runner advancing from third. Runner advancing from third is removed, no run is scored and no out charged. If on the play, a putout at any base results in an open base, runner who occupied third base returns to third base.
16. Bases full, any runner leaves too soon, batter received a base on balls or is hit by a pitch, each runner will advance one base and a run will score.

Little League Casebook
Play 7-18: Bases loaded and any one of the runners leaves a base early. Batter hits a clean triple, but is thrown out at the plate trying to score after the overthrow at third.
Ruling: “Time” is called, the out stands. Return all runners to first, second and third.

Play 7-19: Bases loaded and any one of the runners leaves a base early. An ordinary ground ball is hit directly to the shortstop that goes through his/her legs into the outfield grass. All runners advance one base.
Ruling: One run scores because the ball was not valued as an infield hit. Remember, the ball must stay in the infield to use 7.13 (c).

NOTE (1): When an umpire detects a base runner leaving the base too soon, that umpire shall drop a signal flag or handkerchief immediately to indicate the violation.

NOTE (2): For purpose of these examples, it is assumed that the batter-runner remains at the base last acquired safely.

[greymule]

Wow. Don't do LL so didn't know any of that. I assumed LL was like softball—you're out if you leave too soon.

What about R1 leaves 1B too soon, B1 hits ground ball to F6, who makes play too late at 2B? Both R1 and B1 safe?

[kono]

Originally posted by greymule
Wow. Don't do LL so didn't know any of that. I assumed LL was like softball—you're out if you leave too soon.

What about R1 leaves 1B too soon, B1 hits ground ball to F6, who makes play too late at 2B? Both R1 and B1 safe?

Yup. If I had a slow runner, I'd have him leaving early all the time - for exactly the reason you mentioned. Worst thing that can happen is he gets pushed back to the original base. Some blues have suggested that if a team does this too often, a warning can be issued for violating the spirit of the game (or some nonsense like that). I agree, I don't like it - but I don't see much latitude for a warning other than 9.01(c).

LL Softball is similar to ASA softball (at least in this respect). The rule I quoted above is strictly for baseball. The theory (I think) is that at the next level of baseball, leading is a good thing. This comes as close to the next level as possible without penalizing young developing catchers.

On the softball side - if you leave before the ball reaches the batter, you are out. Older age levels allow the runner to leave after F1 releases the ball.

-Kono

[whiskers_ump]

"And I thought the DP/DEFO Situation was complicated!

No wonder in the Little League Rule Book after Rule 9.06
[softball book]
{BB too probably] is the following listed under heading
IMPORTANT

"Carry your Rule Book."

Thanks for the list...Printed it to show granddaughter.


glen

[Skahtboi]

In a similarly confusing rule, Dixie softball also uses a flag for when the runner leaves a base early in their 12U divisions (Ponytails). When the runner leaves early, a flag is dropped by the BU. The outcome is, (are you ready for this folks?), the defensive coach has the option of keeping all, part, or none of the play. There is no out to be called on the offender.

Scott

[SamNVa]

I had the following example of the "POOF" play in a minors (9-10) league this past spring.

Situation: Bottom of the sixth, home team down by 2, 2 outs, #7 hitter at the plate, I'm PU, BU is a rookie.

The batter hits a weak line drive to F6's right. F6 manages to get a glove on the ball and knock it down, but ends up throwing the ball out into right field in an attempt to get R3 at 2nd. After the ensuing melee of runners running, fielders throwing, and other fielders missing, the BR ends up on 3rd, 3 runs have apparently scored and the home team is beginning their post game celebration. I begin to walk out to the mound to retrieve the game ball when I happen to notice the red flag out in short left center and see my partner coming over with a perplexed look on his face. He proceeds to inform me that R3 was a good 2-3 steps off of 1st before the ball reached the batter, but that he is not sure what to do about it. I ask him if he is sure and he affirms that he is, so after a heavy sigh, I get the two managers together and explain that we have a 7.13 violation, so the game is not over.

Well, the offensive coach immediately begins to argue his case without waiting for me to explain the situation and the dialog went something like this:

Me: Ok, coaches, We have a 7.13 violation, the runner on 1st left early, so...

Coach: Well, the batter ended up on 3rd, so all the runs score anyway right?

Me: No coach since the shortstop knocked the ball down, the batter has to go back to 1st, and the other runners have to return to the nearest open base...

Coach: But only the runner on 1st right? He was the runner who left early, so the other two runners score, right?

Me: No, coach. If one runner leaves early all runners are affected, so they all go back.

Coach: What? What?! That can't be right! The other two guys didn't do anything wrong so why do they have to go back?

Me: Because that's what the rule says, coach.

Coach: Well, what about the kid on 3rd. He can't go back, so he scores right?

Me: Well since the shortstop kept the ball in the infield, the runner on 3rd goes poof.

Coach: "Poof?" What the h*ll are you talking about? (Since it was just us adults around, I let his little slip slide.)

Me: Since no run can score on an in-field hit when a runner leaves early. the runner on 3rd just vanishes, we put him in the dugout without recording a run. Tell your scorekeepers just to write 7.13 in the box.

Coach: You've got to be kidding me. They make a dozen errors and we score 3 runs to win the game and now you're telling that none of them count because the runner on first took a couple of steps before the batter hit the ball?

Me: 'Fraid so coach, that's what the rule says.

Coach: Well, that's a stupid rule.

Me: Maybe so coach, but that's what we playing by. Now, we have 2 outs, and the bases are still loaded. Let's play ball, gentlemen.

To complete the story, B8 and B9 have done nothing but look at the ball all day, so the offensive coach isn't expecting anything from them. B8 manages to eek out a walk on a 3-2 count, but when the count goes to 1-2 on B9, the offensive coach gets nervous and tries a delayed steal on the next pitch (which was a ball btw), but F1 and F2 are on their toes and get the runner on a not-so-close play at the plate, so the home team ends up losing by 1 run.

Now, guess which side of the field, the parking lot was on.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

Post of the month Sam........

Yup..........that was the example of the "Poof" rule I was looking for.............(I knew there was more to it than I understood/implied)........

Funny rule.......but that's what makes LL great.........grin


Joel

[whiskers_ump]

Great post Sam.

You know sometimes when we answer post, we asked "What do you want the
runner to do?" Disappear?

Well, LL BB has answered that for us. I am
just glad it is not a rule employed by the LL SB'ers.


glen

[SamNVa]

Here's another website with . There are some duplicates but there aare some new ones too. .

SamC

http://www.mansun-nl.com/smilies.htm

[whiskers_ump]

Thanks Sam.



The rest of the guys will probably not like it, cause
they figure I use the things too much now....and has
nut'ing to do with softball. Are you the one using the
umpire...Where did you it. Or was that Roger...


glen