Fourth out appeal - NFHS

[Andy]

I was going back through some fourth out appeal threads. I know that ASA rules state that the fourth out appeal is only valid on a runner that has scored, but NFHS does not make that same qualification. With that in mind, here are two plays. Using NFHS rules only, tell me how you rule regarding the runs scoring:

1. R1 on third, R2 on second, two out.
B3 base hit, R1 scores, R2 is thrown out at home for out #3.
B3 advances to second on the throw home, but did not touch first base.
Defense properly appeals B3 missing first base.


2. Bases loaded, two out.
B4 base hit, R1 scores from third, R2 scores from second, R3 advances from first to third, but misses second base. B4 is thrown out attempting to advance to second for out #3.
Defense properly appeals R3 missing second base.

[AtlUmpSteve]

1. No run can score on any play where the BR does not reach first safely. 9-1-1 exception 1.

2. The apparent answer 9-1-1 exception 4 (resulting in a force out) would seem to be no run scores. But there is a twist in this play; B4, a trailing runner made the third out. Therefore, the force was removed prior to the appeal, so the runs would score. If the third out was made by any other runner, leaving the force in effect, the runs would not score.

If you have doubts about this, consider if this play happened with one out, and B4 made only the 2nd out. If the ball remained live, and even though there was no logic to doing so, could R3 legally retreat, and touching all bases in reverse order, return to first base? I say yes, and therefore no longer required to advance as a result of the batter having become a batter-runner (not forced).

[greymule]

I have to admit that I'm not 100% sure, but in the second case I'd disallow the run (in Fed).

Just as ASA (with its rule change a few years ago) became the only code I know that does not honor a fourth-out appeal on a runner who did not score, it is also the only code I know that determines whether an appeal of a missed base is a force out based on whether the runner is forced at the time of the appeal. In ASA, if the BR is put out, all force plays are off, period. (Exception: BR declared out for discarding helmet.)

In OBR, NCAA, and Fed baseball, for example, a successful appeal of a missed base is considered a force out if the runner was forced at the time he missed the bag. I suspect that Fed and NCAA softball would interpret this play the same way, but it's impossible to tell for certain from the rule book alone, and I don't know of any case plays to the contrary (though there may be one in Fed for all I know).

AtlUmpSteve, your reasoning certainly makes sense, but without evidence otherwise, I suspect that ASA is unique in following it.