ASA Pitcher Delay
 

Idea taken from another board:

Speaking ASA SP (but could be FP depending on lapsed time)

Umpire calls ball on the batter to take the count full. Unhappy pitcher steps toward the plate and tries to stare down the umpire and intentionally allows the catcher's return throw go into center field.

As no one really chasing down the ball, the umpire offers an open hand toward the pitcher, says, "play ball" and sets up behind the catcher. By the time the ball gets back to the infield, nearly 10 seconds passes. Pitchers snaps off the throw from the SS and stomps around a bit.

Umpire rules ball 4 and awards batter 1B. Defense protests what they believe is a misinterpretation of rule 6.3.

As the UIC, how would you rule?

J. The pitcher has 10 seconds to release the next pitch after receiving the ball or after the umpire indicates "play ball".
Technically, the rule doesn't stipulate anything like "whichever comes first/last".

Obviously, the defense would argue that it's 10 seconds after the pitcher gets the ball, regardless of which circumlocation the ball may have taken. The catcher didn't throw it to someone other than the pitcher, which would result in an automatic ball call.

If this was the first time in the game that it happened, I'd be inclined to warn the offending team.

If it was a situation where the tone of the game had been developing for a few innings, and the pitcher was being a Richard Cranium, I might just decide to call a ball. In all likelihood, walks to the parking lot might follow.

As a UIC, which I'm not, I'd probably rule that the defense intentionally allowed their 10 seconds to be squandered, and that after some seconds had passed and the umpire called "Play ball" [to start the 10-second count-down], they should have hustled to retrieve the ball and make the delivery.

Might also depend on the level of the participants. The 12U crowd often has a bit of trouble with the simple task of a catcher retrieving a ball and making a catchable return throw to the pitcher. And even at that, there's no guarantee the pitcher can actually catch the ball.

So in summary: it depends. Right up there on the fence.

First, I'd want to know what exactly the umpire ruled. Was it 6-3-J? Or was it 7-5-G with no runners on (catcher failing to return the ball to the pitcher)? The latter is quite the reach, but I'd have to have his ruling first before I could make mine.

I'm inclined to agree with Tru_in_Blu. The rule says "OR after the umpire indicates 'play ball.'" If a pitcher is trying to show up the umpire that way, he deserves to have ball 4 called on him without a subsequent pitch thrown.

By rule, I say the umpire was correct. The PU can expect to catch hell from the defense, but if the pitcher pulls those kinds of shenanigans on the field, that's an appropriate way to handle it.

Protest denied, the rule was applied correctly, your fault your team wanted to show out instead of playing when directed according to the rule. Too bad, so sad, coach.

By the way, coach, you might want to suggest to your pitcher that you got a break; the ball awarded for his little hissy fit costs the team less than the equally earned ejection.

Play ball.

Taking it slow...
 

I've had a man FP-game a view years ago which was soooooooo slow :mad:. I was BU that game and realy pi$$ed about how slow it went. Then the second game of the DH came up...
I first told both teams to speed it up. Then, when home-team pitcher was telling his outfield where to stand (don't laugh: it's the highest league it the Neth's), I called "Play Ball". Waited until I've caunted to 10 and then "That's a BALL!"
The next half inning when a batter wasn't ready (same slow home-team) "Batter-up!"... <pause> ..."Play Ball" ... <pause> ... "That's a STRIKE!"

Hell brake lose, I was to blame and the coach was excused. He got 12 games off! My scorer wrote down all what was thrown to my head by this person :rolleyes: and oooh he wouldn't leave the field, kicked dirt and blamed me for 200 years of slavery :(

I do go along with Steve; sometimes we do have to stand up against this types.

The rule does not state the pitcher must have possession.

Pitching rule.............
 

2009 ASA RuleBook, Rule 6, Section3, J:"The pitcher has 10 seconds to release the next pitch after receiving the ball or after the umpire indicates "play ball."
You were saying Irish.....?
In this particular case, I'm NOT going to indicate "play ball" to further *iss off the pitcher. Like I said in my earlier post, sometimes the best call is no call at all.

Just because you choose to avoid pissing off a pitcher (who is showing you up) by not indicating "play ball" does not mean the rule requires possession.

BTW, what's with everything being in bold?

Thank you for addressing the elephant in the room....or on the board, as the case may be. :cool:

The question from the OP is:

Umpire rules ball 4 and awards batter 1B. Defense protests what they believe is a misinterpretation of rule 6.3.

As the UIC, how would you rule?

The issue is not whether you would have called a ball or not. The situation was given and the PU did call a ball. The result was a protested game.

The whole bolding thing to me seems like someone trying to make a statement and wanting to ensure they're being heard. That being the case, and if that's Stevethump's "style", I'd have to question if he could quietly tell the catcher anything. If he gave the catcher a handwritten note, I'd expect it to be bolded. :rolleyes:

I do read most of the entries posted here. I don't have a pressing need to reply to every one, even if they are less than five years old. :p

And sometimes making no call at all makes a problem for the umpire in the team's next game. I don't ask myself, "Will I piss off this player/coach?" when enforcing a rule, especially if I'm being shown up, but that's just me.

To *iss off, or not to *iss off, is that the question?
 

Seth - I don't do that, either, but there are different ways to handle any situation:
1. Yeah, you can further *iss the pitcher off by calling "ball 4." That will probably result in his getting in your face and you ejecting him. Now, the situation has ESCALATED to a possible forfeit situation. Or,
2. (Again, quietly) say something to the catcher to have him go out and calm down the pitcher. The pitcher is going to be more "receptive" to the catcher than he would be to you. Now, I have DEFUSED the situation. The pitcher gets a chance to cool down. I get a chance to cool down and nobody has (yet) made a decision that they will later regret.
Getting in a *issing contest with players is NEVER a good thing. Being an umpire requires a good working knowledge of the rules, excellent mechanics,
and knowing when to warn & when to eject.
Okay, off soapbox.

Of course not. However, when a player is deliberately showing you up because they didn't like a judgment call, you can't let it slide. If you do, you're now looking more like breakfast to them.

To start, this is the rule, you are being paid to enforce the rule and if you start worrying about how a player is going to react by you doing your job, you will stop doing the job for which you are being paid.

Not my problem. If the pitcher is going to be an ***, nothing the umpire does or doesn't do is going to make that change. For that matter, in many circumstances, if the player is trying to intimidate you (and that IS what the player is doing), you may have just raised the bar for him/her and THAT may escalate it that much more.

Why would an umpire get into a pissing contest with anyone? When was the last time you saw an umpire lose a debate/discussion/argument with a player or coach?

Yeah, as an umpire, you don't WANT to eject anyone. And you do want to defuse any possible volatile situation. However, there are TWO teams on the field and both are paying for the umpire to be there and enforce the rule by which THEY agreed to play. Your feelings are irrelevant to the issue. You are not the one who intentionally allowed the ball to pass into center field and delay the game.

And, yes, the game situation may determine how you handle the situation. But if you allow this pitcher to get away with this stunt, what are you going to let the other pitcher get away with? After all, you don't want to seem unfair, right? Where does it end?

In this case, the OP has already set the play and resolution. You are being asked to rule on the protest as the UIC. And I can tell you that personal feelings or preferences should not factor into your decision.

Handling situations....................
 

First of all Irish, I don't worry about how a player is going to react.
Second, I am NOT going to stop doing my job. I've been doing my job for over 30 years now and I've gotten pretty good at it.
Third, I am only making a suggestion here. Instead of getting in to a situation that I KNOW will quite probably result in a player getting ejected, I look for an ALTERNATE way to "do my job" and keep him in the game. An ejection is the LAST RESORT between a player and an umpire.

I'm not "letting the pitcher get away" with anything. What I'm saying is, I'm using the catcher to help resolve the situation. Don't be caught with "tunnel vision" and see a difficult situation in only one "light." Also, I realize that "personal feelings" play NO part in resolving a protest. I've been involved in MANY protests and in every one, personal feelings played NO part in resolving it. BTW - I've NEVER lost a protest. If I have to, I'll break out the rule book, find the appropriate rule and show the manager. Now, if he wants to argue with the rule book, oh well.....
If a player "baits" me in to how I respond, then I'm playing his game. That's not going to happen. You umpire leagues long enough, you get to know the players - the good ones, the bad ones and the "wannabes." I've been on the field long enough to know to see it (baiting) coming.

Yet you posted more than once in a manner which, at least to me, indicates you are. You suggested more than once that you would not make the call that may create a pissing contest with the pitcher.

Congratulations. I'm in my 44th year as I started in 1966 at 14 yo.

An ejection has nothing to do with the umpire. Either the player crosses a line or not. The umpire is not ejecting anyone without cause. It has often been stated that umpires don't throw out players, players throw themselves out. In most of the cases, that is a very accurate comment.

Yep, just as I teach it, but you're still talking about what you would or wouldn't do. This isn't about you, it is about the call and whether the umpire's ruling was within the parameters of the given rules.

So far, you have done everything, but answer the question asked.

BTW, since we are keeping score, I've only had one protest and my call was upheld.

Umpiring............
 

It is quite evident, at least to me, that we have different umpiring "styles." So be it. If what you do works for you, fine. I'll do what works for me.


Congratulations.



I believe the same as you do - "players/coaches eject themselves - I just let them know they did it."



I would say the umpire's ruling WAS within the parameters of the given rules. Are you happy now?

I believe I did (above).

ONE protest in 44 years?

That's not all that unusual. I've got over 40 years of umpiring and have never had a protest upheld.
Perhaps you should rethink the "you do what works for you & I'll do what works for me" approach and ponder a bit more on those who've been around, at all levels, and what they say.

Sure, and to me, the call was a no brainer. The tournament UIC (BH) at the time accepted the call, then called the RUIC (RS) who in turn checked with the Deputy UIC (HP).

All was good.

I have never had a protest. Of course, I have a few less years on the job than you and Mike, so maybe someday. :cool:

Learning is a lifelong experience..........
 

SteveM - I DO consider what other people say and if I think it will work for me, I'll use it. However, I KNOW what works for me and I have been successful at many levels. So, forgive me if I don't follow everyone's advice.

I've had only one. The UIC agreed with my ruling, and play continued.

NC - Too many (mostly younger) umpires get flustered when a coach says that 7-letter word "protest." That's why it is important ALL umpires know what can - and cannot - be protested.
I had a coach a couple years ago try to protest a game (ASA SP)on a "foul tip." He thought the batter should have been called "out" (the ft was only her 2nd strike). I told him he could not protest a game on a judgment call. You could almost see the steam coming out of his ears. I ended up ejecting him for a personal attack directed at me. Come to find out, he was President of the league.
Good "role model," huh?

Oh, I don't mind protests. In fact, during one tourney, I casually asked the coach if he would like to have the rule interpretation protested (I posted the situation here, which led to quite the debate). In that instance, the coach declined, and we played ball. In the instance I mentioned earlier, the coach was so frazzled that all he knew was that he wanted "to... to... to talk to somebody!"

"Coach, what you're saying is you want to protest, right? :)"

"Yeah! That's what I mean!"

"Okay, no problem. Hey, UIC! :)"

I have no problem with protests. I'm confident in my ability to interpret and apply the rules correctly, and I don't take it personally.

Protests...........
 

I don't have a problem with protests either. But, I emphasize to my fellow umpires that they must go on the field with a good "working knowledge" of the rules and if needed, go to the rulebook to get the correct interpretation. If they just "wing it," that ump could be back on the field to finish a game HE screwed up. I know that doesn't happen that often, but the possibility is there, nonetheless.

Different organizations have different opinions on whether an umpire should have the rulebook with him/her on the field. My understanding from blues on this board is that the NCAA requires it (please correct me if I'm wrong), while in ASA, it's frowned upon. Without going into a whole debate as to why one side is wrong or right, I'll just sum it up that both sides have merited arguments.

Then again, I do have the PDF version of the ASA rule book on my phone...

NCAA requires that the rulebook be accessible. I keep one in my car during games. Coaches usually have a rulebook in the dugout.

I was watching two small D1 schools from Texas last spring and there was an over 20 minute 'delay' when one of the coaches broke out the rule book for a thrown ball out of play and the placement of runners. It was really humorous though as even with all that, the three blues on the field still didn't 'get it right'

here is the play in question:
zero outs.
R2 one 1st, R1 on 2nd, B3 hits a ground ball to F6. F6 fields the batted ball, and steps on 3rd base forcing R1 out for the 1st out by 4 to 5 steps. F6 then throws the ball to F3, however the throw is low/wide, tipping off F6's glove, then into dead ball territory.

after a conference of the 3 blues, they awarded R2 home (and then the fire works commenced)

It was very clear that R2 had not reached 2nd base at the point of release of the throw from F6, but non of the blues knew for sure. The real problem though was that it didn't appear the coach understood the rule in the first place and was 'arguing' that because the ball was tipped, the dead ball award should be different. In the end, rule books were broke out by both coaches, the blues on the field still awarded R2 home. which they latter admitted to another umpire buddy of mine was the wrong call.

Thanks for the clarification, Scott. :)

Here he goes with the phone thing again.....:)

Some organizations frown at you having your phone on the field...jus' sayin....

I don't have it on the field. It is, however, in my equipment bag, which is either on the bleachers during league play or in the tower during tourneys. :)

:eek: :eek: :( :( :p

Although obviously it is off. :o

What do you mean it's off? You mean turned off? It's definitely not in any of my pockets on the field. That's a $600 phone!

Pricey phones...........
 

NC - A $600 PHONE? For that price, I hope it can slice, dice & make Julienne fries (as well as make a call).:D

PC WARNING!! Don't look below if you shock easily!!










Personally, I would be expecting a soft pair of lips, and that it swallow.

/PC WARNING

I didn't pay $600, guys. I paid $179. It's called subsidizing, and every carrier does it. That's why most carriers make you sign 2-year agreements, as the cost of your plan offsets the cost of the phone. If you try to buy the phone outright, that's how much it would cost.

Sheesh, you guys haven't heard about this? :)

No, it is inflationary posting. Much like that $49 room at Motel 5.9 that lists the daily room value on the back of the door as $159.

The phone, and everything else, is only worth what some sorry ******* is stu......willing to pay for it.

Anybody can afford to give you a 50% discount when the item is marked up 70-75% over cost. You really don't think retailers discount articles as much as advertise, do you? :rolleyes:

Of course not. And it's not 70-75%, it's often 100% or higher.

But hey, supply and demand. The supply is there, but the demand is REALLY high.

Personally, I don't mind what I spent at all. My wife and I don't have land lines, and these phones are, in my opinion, a bargain for what I get out of them.

lol...........
 

And Steve, what would "her" name be???:rolleyes:

High tech...........
 

Not me. I'm still using two tin cans and a long, long, L-O-N-G string.:D

I have seen something similar before. pitcher refused to take the rubber pouting about balls and strikes. my partner behind the plate called time, and asked the coach for a new pitcher. the pitcher upon hearing this threw a fit, and basically ejected himself outa the game.