ASA vs. Federation BOO

[shipwreck]

Am I getting this straight. As far as when there is a BOO, and the improper batter makes an out, doesn't ASA say this out would stand and the batter who should have batted is out? And doesn't Fed. say a BOO supersedes an out made by the improper batter on a play? If this is all correct would you get 2 outs in ASA and only 1 in Federation? Thanks, Dave

[Steve M]

Dave,
Yes, your understanding is correct. I think it was last year that Fed & ASA shared a case play (think it was situation 17 for Fed). The batter who BOO'd hit into a double play and then the BOO was pointed out. In Fed, you get 2 outs for this play. In ASA, you get 3 outs. In an extreme example with ASA, you could get 3 outs on 2 pitches with this situation.

Now I'm the interpreter in my Fed chapter and also in my ASA chapter (and since there's only 1 fast pitch chapter in my ASA district, guess that makes me the district interpreter). But the vast majority of my knowledge is based on ASA - that's what I learned well first. Following the thought process of 'screw the team that screwed up', ASA has the better ruling.

Steve M

[greymule]

If I understand you correctly, you're right. In Fed, you get everybody but the batter on the play. In ASA, you get the batter, too.

Abel supposed to bat, Baker hits into a 6-4-3 double play. In ASA, the double play stands and Abel is also out. In Fed, the first out of the DP stands, Abel is out, and Baker bats again.

OBR is very different.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

ASA.........I had a situation where I got three outs for the price of two this year.............first time ever...........

It was kinda surreal..............grin

Joel

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by greymule
If I understand you correctly, you're right. In Fed, you get everybody but the batter on the play. In ASA, you get the batter, too.

Abel supposed to bat, Baker hits into a 6-4-3 double play. In ASA, the double play stands and Abel is also out. In Fed, the first out of the DP stands, Abel is out, and Baker bats again.

OBR is very different.

In OBR, if the improper batter hits into a double play, you would want to remain SILENT regarding the fact that he batted out of order. Because the play would be nullified and only the proper batter would be declared out. Basically, in OBR, there is hardly ever any advantage to claim that a batter who made an out batted out of order.

In my opinion, the ASA interpretation is a bit extreme. Probably the FED is the best middle ground. Yet, all three are different, as you've pointed out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by David Emerling


In OBR, if the improper batter hits into a double play, you would want to remain SILENT regarding the fact that he batted out of order. Because the play would be nullified and only the proper batter would be declared out. Basically, in OBR, there is hardly ever any advantage to claim that a batter who made an out batted out of order.

In my opinion, the ASA interpretation is a bit extreme. Probably the FED is the best middle ground. Yet, all three are different, as you've pointed out.

Hell, Dave, you think half the things ASA does is to the extreme, but being a baseball-influenced person, I can understand.

However, what is so extreme about the rule? Why should the defense be penalized for making a good play and catching the offense in an illegal act?

[David Emerling]

Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
Hell, Dave, you think half the things ASA does is to the extreme, but being a baseball-influenced person, I can understand.

However, what is so extreme about the rule? Why should the defense be penalized for making a good play and catching the offense in an illegal act?

I'll confess to being a bit baseball-biased. But don't get me wrong - I *love* girls fastpitch! I have sons that play baseball and a daughter who plays fastpitch; although I enjoy watching all their games, I have to confess that I rather enjoy watching the girls play more.

No, I can think of several things ASA doesn't do to the "extreme." For instance, they do not make their rulebook "extremely" available to the general public. I just couldn't resist that one!

The ASA view of BOO is not without logic, for certain. It's just that I think it's a bit heavy handed to allow the defense to have their cake and eat it, too. They get the benefit of getting an out because an invalid batter batted and yet, at the same time, they get the play validated by registering outs. And THEN ... as if that wasn't good enough ... they get the PROPER batter out ... with a "cherry on top!"

It certainly makes things easy for the defense when they become aware that an improper batter just finished their turn at bat. Raise the red flag NOW! It doesn't matter if the batter got a hit or got out ... you're going to benefit to the maximum extent by making the BOO claim as soon as their turn at bat has ended.

You know what I think? I think many of these organizations like to PURPOSELY be different simply for the sake of being DIFFERENT. FED baseball has long been accused of that. For some inexplicable reason they like to carve their little niche in the sport and then wear that niche like a badge of honor. "That's OUR rule!"

Generally speaking, most people don't have difficulties with varying substitution rules between organizations. That really doesn't change the substance of the game. Who really cares that NSA allows up to two optional EP's and a DH whereas ASA fastpitch only permits the DP/DEFO? ASA recently allowed subs to reenter. Fine. None of these rule differences changes the way the game is played once the ball is hit.

Softball is a derivative of baseball. I just find it strange when softball takes a rule out of the baseball rulebook and then twists it into something surprisingly bizarre that most people don't recognize it, or, are shocked to find out that that IS the rule.

Imagine if softball did this: Henceforth, any runner struck by a batted ball is NOT out unless such action on the part the runner is deemed INTENTIONAL by the umpire.

That rule would send shock waves throughout the softball world. My guess is that it wouldn't take very long until a ground ball that was heading straight for F4 would be "accidentally" kicked by the advancing R1 until everybody hit the ceiling and said, "What the hell were they thinking?" That rule just seems wrong. It looks wrong. It feels wrong. It's not what we're used to. It's different.

That's sort of how I see this BOO thing. With no outs, if the improper batter hit a line drive that doubled-up another runner and *then* the inning ended because the defense claimed she batted out of order, my guess shock waves would ripple throughout the crowd.

Sure, it'd be the correct call - technically. The offensive fans would feel screwed ... and the defensive fans would feel like the cat that just ate the canary. One would fell like it's too BAD to be true while the other would be thinking that it's too GOOD to be true. And yet - it's true. And that's esentially the definition of an "extreme rule."

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally posted by David Emerling

I started working baseball 36 years ago, closed Connie Mack Stadium and opened Veteran's Stadium, attended over 50 Phillies games a year from '71 to '74 (Phillies gave active military free tickets and I was stationed at the Naval Base at the end of Broad St.), and attended game 6 of the '80 World Series in Philly. It was the only time I ever heard the announcer state that "dogs and horses are in play." However, I got bored with what has become a boring game. Even though I use to play FP, I considered that game equally boring which is why I prefer to work the SP game.

Very good, but if you cannot afford the $9.95 for the book maybe you should become a manager so you get a book as part of your registration.

Hey, the offense does nothing more than make a play on a valid batter. It isn't their fault the batter that SHOULD be hitting failed to do so. All the offense did was pay attention. In the World Cup tournament this year, I had four potential BOOs, but not one was brought to my attention until a few batter later.[/b]

Softball is a derivative of baseball. I just find it strange when softball takes a rule out of the baseball rulebook and then twists it into something surprisingly bizarre that most people don't recognize it, or, are shocked to find out that that IS the rule.

Sorry, but that is just a personal opinion. I believe it is the other way around and thought I presented a very sound case. Of course, many baseball purists are too vain to believe their game wasn't an original. Sorry, I couldn't resist :-)

That's sort of how I see this BOO thing. With no outs, if the improper batter hit a line drive that doubled-up another runner and *then* the inning ended because the defense claimed she batted out of order, my guess shock waves would ripple throughout the crowd.

Sure, it'd be the correct call - technically. The offensive fans would feel screwed ... and the defensive fans would feel like the cat that just ate the canary. One would fell like it's too BAD to be true while the other would be thinking that it's too GOOD to be true. And yet - it's true. And that's esentially the definition of an "extreme rule."

Yeah, we wouldn't want a technicality like a rule get in the way of ball game.

[Gulf Coast Blue]

I highly enjoyed working the (very) few SP games I have........(I really do.........a lot of fun)..........

But I could never imagine NOT calling FP............

When I quit calling baseball............I gave it a BIG "good riddance"................grin (I may still give it a whirl.........probably)..........the local HS/Legion field is about 100 yds. from my place........so I get to watch a lot of games.........


Anywhooooooo..........I got carried away...........

I just like umpiring.........

Joel

BTW.........I tried to do the quote thingy.............but..............I am NOT literate enough to do that yet............grin

[Roger Greene]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by IRISHMAFIA
[B][QUOTE]Originally posted by David Emerling
[B][QUOTE]

from '71 to '74 (Phillies gave active military free tickets and I was stationed at the Naval Base at the end of Broad St.),

Mike,

I delivered a few prisioners to the Philly Navel base between 71 and 73. Always had to take a ragging from a few of the blue water sailors inside the gate wearing that shield on my left sleeve.

Roger Greene