Blue's opinion on pitch framing

[verruckt]

I'm sure many of you have an opinion on framing a pitch, and that is percisely why I decided to ask here. I'm not an umpire. My daughter plays competitive ball as a catcher. We've heard countless times, coaches at tryouts,
parents, and even other pitchers and catchers suggest 'framing' pitches to fool Blue.

My daughter has been taught by a great catching coach who subscribes to this method by Dave Weaver of the New England Catching Camp. Here is his take on framing, and why he is against it.
The New England Catching Camp - Online Camp: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitch!

I've thought alot about this, and it bothers me when people suggest to my daughter that what she is doing, is incorrect. Even DII coaches at clinics have suggested framing. WTH?

Everyone has a strong opinion on this, and seems to think the PU just watches the mitt. I've always thought that they watch the ball through, to the sound of the catch itself. Framing is after the fact, right? I can understand wanting to make a bad pitch look good, sure. But when you're moving the mitt in, or up (obviously) after the 'thud' of the reception. It almost to me seems like insulting the umpire at that point. I rather doubt you all are staring off into space and get brought back to reality with the sound of the catch.

Does framing really 'trick' you all? Do you find it insulting, as trying to pull one over on you? Does a catcher who does do this alot, how does this affect your decision making on other pitches? And if you have a catcher who does NOT do this, how does this affect your decisions on other pitches if at all? What's your overall opinion regarding framing vs not framing?

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by verruckt

I'm sure many of you have an opinion on framing a pitch, and that is percisely why I decided to ask here. I'm not an umpire. My daughter plays competitive ball as a catcher. We've heard countless times, coaches at tryouts,
parents, and even other pitchers and catchers suggest 'framing' pitches to fool Blue.

My daughter has been taught by a great catching coach who subscribes to this method by Dave Weaver of the New England Catching Camp. Here is his take on framing, and why he is against it.
The New England Catching Camp - Online Camp: Don't Ever Teach Your Catchers to Frame a Pitch!

I've thought alot about this, and it bothers me when people suggest to my daughter that what she is doing, is incorrect. Even DII coaches at clinics have suggested framing. WTH?

Everyone has a strong opinion on this, and seems to think the PU just watches the mitt. I've always thought that they watch the ball through, to the sound of the catch itself. Framing is after the fact, right? I can understand wanting to make a bad pitch look good, sure. But when you're moving the mitt in, or up (obviously) after the 'thud' of the reception. It almost to me seems like insulting the umpire at that point. I rather doubt you all are staring off into space and get brought back to reality with the sound of the catch.

Does framing really 'trick' you all? Do you find it insulting, as trying to pull one over on you? Does a catcher who does do this alot, how does this affect your decision making on other pitches? And if you have a catcher who does NOT do this, how does this affect your decisions on other pitches if at all? What's your overall opinion regarding framing vs not framing?

As long as the catcher still allow me to make the call and is kind enough to admitt that not all her framed pitches are strikes, it's fine by me.
Yes it's foul-play to frame. No I don't mind. THAT interact between catcher an PU makes being the PU worth playing along. I'm mostly always in the talking-mode with catchers. If she fools me, I give a compliment. The other way around works it as well.
The best is if a catcher shut-up the complaining from pitcher and/or coach! At that point she may frame all of it, just to show off and find out how often I let myself be fooled!

[IRISHMAFIA]

Really don't care what you do, just don't hold the glove as if you are trying to influence the call.

But if you want to play that game, remember how the umpire may see something. If the catcher moves the glove and then holds it, apparently the catcher didn't think the pitch was in the strike zone, so why should the umpire call the pitch a strike.

Trying to sell a pitch by framing does nothing more than incite others and possibly turn strikes into balls especially if the catcher insists on "framing" strikes.

The smart catchers will catch the damn thing, immediately return it to the pitcher and prepare for the next pitch.

The one thing which you can bet will be influenced by such antics by the catcher is the time the catcher, pitcher and coach spend in the game.

[Dakota]

If by framing, you mean moving the mitt into a more "favorable" position after the pitch, that is annoying, and when it is done on a nice pitch that just catches the corner, it is the closest I come to giving a FYC in youth fastpitch.

If by framing, you mean holding the mitt in place after the ball call is made, that is even more annoying and is likely to get a comment by me to the catcher.

If by framing, you mean holding the mitt still for a brief moment, fine by me.

[verruckt]

Dutch Alex.. ein bisschen

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Really don't care what you do, just don't hold the glove as if you are trying to influence the call.

When you say 'hold the glove', are you talking about moving it into the zone, expecting a certain call? Or are you talking about the position that they hold the glove to receive the pitch? The way my daughter positions her mitt, depends on where the pitch comes in. If it's in the middle she's got her thumb out at 3 o'clock. If it's inside (rt handed batter) thumb is at 12-1. Outside, thumb at 6. Was this what you were talking about?

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

The smart catchers will catch the damn thing, immediately return it to the pitcher and prepare for the next pitch.

That's actually another question... If a pitch is caught, occasionally the PU will have a slight delay before calling it. And I'm sure you've all heard that it's assumed that you're 'deciding' what it should have been. That's why I'm sure a great many catchers will hold the ball, before sending it back. What's with the delay?

Originally Posted by Dakota

If by framing, you mean moving the mitt into a more "favorable" position after the pitch, that is annoying, and when it is done on a nice pitch that just catches the corner, it is the closest I come to giving a FYC in youth fastpitch.

If by framing, you mean holding the mitt in place after the ball call is made, that is even more annoying and is likely to get a comment by me to the catcher.

If by framing, you mean holding the mitt still for a brief moment, fine by me.

What I mean by framing, and what most people seem to agree on the definition of, is by moving the mitt into the zone to a more favorable position in the zone.


Great feedback, thanks!

[AtlUmpSteve]

Like the others have indicated, I believe catchers cost their pitchers more strikes by trying to move the mitt after catching it than stealing a call or two. If she has to move it after catching it, she is telling me she knows it isn't a strike, and needs to try to make it look better (like I haven't already seen the ball not cross the plate).

Good catchers don't move strikes, they catch them and show them to you. A good catcher will "stick" a borderline pitch, holding it for just a moment where she caught it, subliminally telling you it is exactly where she wants it. At most, she will curl her glove minimally, so that you see less of the part that is outside the zone. Then, she will return it, even if she doesn't get the call, because posing with it is attempting to show up the umpire.

What most coaches call "framing" will cost pitchers the close pitches.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by verruckt

That's actually another question... If a pitch is caught, occasionally the PU will have a slight delay before calling it. And I'm sure you've all heard that it's assumed that you're 'deciding' what it should have been. That's why I'm sure a great many catchers will hold the ball, before sending it back. What's with the delay?

It is a timing mechanism to avoid calling a pitch too early.

How bad does it look when an umpire starts verbalizing a call only to have a late swing make contact? "Bal....er, stri....no, no, foul ball!" Yep, bet that instills a lot of confidence in the umpire by the coaches!

Waiting for the ball to get to the glove insures there is no early call.

[argodad]

I like to call strikes. I think most of us do. A good catcher "frames" the borderline pitch by turning the pocket of her mitt toward the strike zone. That makes the pitch look maybe a hair better than it was -- and if I do think it was a strike, that helps me. A bad catcher thinks framing a pitch means moving the glove into the zone. As others have said, this just tells me that she didn't think it was a strike either.

Regarding timing, I think you'll find the better plate umpires have a nice consistent delay from the time the pitch hits the glove until they give their verbal call. That gives us time to make the decision on a borderline pitch without an obvious change in rhythm. If your timing changes, you will hear it from whichever side didn't get the call. My first mentor would tap his thigh twice before making the call. SNAP! ... tap ... tap ... STRIKE! (except he pronounced it "HAAWW!")

[wadeintothem]

Moving a marginal pitch is not framing. Pulling a marginal pitch is taking a pitch the catcher believes to be a ball and trying to trick the umpire into making it a strike.

Another thing it is trying to do is get the crowd and coaching staff to go against the umpire by showing the umpire up.

It doesnt work with proper umpire mechanics... which would including various methods of telling a catcher to stop doing it. ... because we are going to see her move the glove after she believes the pitch is a ball.


I wrote an article on this issues and others for a softball mag site and reprinted it as a post here
HeyBucket.com - View topic - Sell it to that Umpire!

[CecilOne]

I find moving the mitt in after the pitch a bit annoying. I've told a few catchers that it just makes it look like it wasn't a strike. Basically, by then it's too late anyway.

As far as comments above, I agree most with Steve and Larry.

[verruckt]

Wade, that's a great article. Will print that off for my daughter to read. As for "framing", I've heard a few ideas about what it is exactly, but I always considered it to be moving the mitt in the zone to try and present it as (trick the ump) a mediocre pitch, to pass it off as something it wasn't. The brief pause makes total sense, and anything more not necessary.

[Skahtboi]

A catcher who moves the mitt into the strike zone after receiving the pitch has just told me that she didn't think that pitch was a strike. I have no problem with that, as I probably agree with her. However, the danger happens when I see a really close pitch that I am convinced just may be a strike, and then I see that mitt move. That is when the catcher influences me, and once again, I will agree with her that the pitch was indeed a ball.

[wadeintothem]

Originally Posted by verruckt

That's actually another question... If a pitch is caught, occasionally the PU will have a slight delay before calling it. And I'm sure you've all heard that it's assumed that you're 'deciding' what it should have been. That's why I'm sure a great many catchers will hold the ball, before sending it back. What's with the delay?

It's timing. Mines on the longer side of what you will probably run into. There are many reasons to have longer timing, such as catcher dropping a pitch that is presumed to be a foul tip and the catcher SHOULD catch.. but she drops it. Those with quick timing wont see the drop. You learn timing the more you get F'd over on the field having quick timing. ALso, yeah, maybe I gotta think about one.. but you wouldnt know because ALL of my calls have the same longer timing.

IMO, its ok to hold the catch until the call. Dont hold it after the call.

[Dutch Alex]

Originally Posted by argodad

... My first mentor would tap his thigh twice before making the call. SNAP! ... tap ... tap ... STRIKE! (except he pronounced it "HAAWW!")

Larry, I think we've had the very same mentor!

[7in60]

For pitches on the corners, if I'm not sure, I tend to call ball/strike based on how far the catcher moves the ball. I find framing most 'helpful' on outside pitches. If it's only a couple inches, the pitch caught a corner, otherwise it didn't. High/low I know as soon as it hits the glove.