How to "call" a ball not caught?
 

I had this problem last night:

One out, R1 and R2. Rec ball, but the guys kind of take it seriously.

Batter hits a line drive to the shortstop. The ball hits the ground briefly (for a millisecond), and then goes into the SS's glove. No question in my mind, but it was a question in the mind of many of the fielders and runners.

I didn't call anything, didn't say the batter is out, didn't say "hey guys, run", or anything like that. Just kind of looked at the SS, and waited for things to happen.

They did. After a couple of moments, the SS figured out what was going on, and tagged R2, who had come off of the base, but was confused as to whether to run or not. SS then took two steps to second base, stepped on it, and I called R1 out. He had not run (he was confused, too).

I felt sorry for all of the confusion, and it would have been nice to make some sort of call that made everything clear right away, but I don't know what I should have done? Point to the ground? Call "fair ball" (OK, that was a joke, I'm not really asking that), or something else?

I've made it a practice to signal 'safe' in situations like the one you describe.

And the converse to that is to make a loud and clear "OUT!" call when the ball IS caught on shot that was close to hitting the ground.

"Safe (no catch)" signal, repeat with emphasis; okay (by some) to verbalize "NO CATCH" (but be loud and particularly clear about the "NO!!!"). Maybe even better, just the word "NO!!!" while signaling, so no one can claim they only heard the "catch" part of "no catch". Still better to give them some indication, even if imperfect, than none at all.

Any way you do it, some one will say you didn't tell them soon enough, whatever. At that point, it is their problem, not yours.

I had a similar sit happen to me while i was playing baseball, in LF, slide feet first to snag a shallow pop up, I definitely caught the ball, everyone in the stands, the batter, and R1 knew I caught the ball, the ump didnt say anything, that should have been the 3rd out, as Im running in, I see a lot of players on both teams just standing around, so i flipped the ball to 2nd, and the ump called a force out.

As a player, it would have been nice to know that the ump didnt think it was a catch so I wouldnt have been screwed if the runner and BR actually ran. thus, when I ump, I always yell no catch on a close play to "aid" the fielders and runners. I dont know if its proper by the rule book/mechanics, but I feel its the right thing to do. (especially since I only do SP)

Sounds like good ideas. Thanks, guys. :)

I used to call "no catch," but I now feel that it could be confused for "catch!" I now give a solid "safe" signal with no verbal.

If it's close, the players should be listening for the "out" call anyway. If they don't hear it, then that should be a big clue.

I agree. As a player, and the reason we do not call "fair", I was taught that you play until you hear the umpire. We all do not talk with the same dialect, inflections, drawl, accent, etc.

Remember a game in Richmond one year with runners at 1st & 2nd and a shot down the LF line. Umpire screams, "GOOD BALL" and everyone, offense and defense, stops dead in their tracks. This umpire couldn't understand why no one was running. :rolleyes:

NEVER give a verbal call on a fair hitted ball
 

The sound of "Fair Ball" is kinda simmelair to "Foul Ball".
A "not caught fair hitted ball" is also not an action by a fielder, so a "Safe call" is unpropiat.
All we have to do is just point to fair territory with the right index-finger. THAT is the propper way to give a signal for fair hitted ball!

I would disagree. The OP said the ball short-hopped the SS as he was making a play. As umpires, we are in the communication business. We must communicate what's occurred. In this situation, it's a "no catch." Everyone is best served by a "safe" signal.

In NCAA, we're taught to give a "safe" signal on a potential INT/OB call that we rule is neither. It's an umpire's way of communicating what has occurred and what your ruling is.

I agree that we must communcate what our ruling is. Pointing is the way to communicate that we indeed have a fair hitted ball.

There's no play on a runner, so a "SAFE" call is not to be given.
There is no difference in calling "a close no-catch" or "a fair hiited ball, down the line". So pointing fair, must be the propper way.

Maybe, just maybe, one can add a hand-signal to it, indicating a hop on the ground.

IMHO a SAFE-call, is not wanted. A verbal given call is asking for trouble!

Sander, are these the mechanics that were given to you by your organization in Europe? They're different from what we're instructed to do here in the US.

They're not wrong, they're just different. :)

And don't forget, guys, that pointing to the ground was the ASA signal for a trapped ball up until a couple years ago.

I worked with a partner (PU) last night who wanted me (BU) to be able to completely focus on the baserunners. On any fly ball, he called either, "Catch!" or "On the ground!".

True, but I don't believe the signal is the issue. When a ball is put into play, the defense has people screaming for the ball here or there and the offense is screaming for the BR/Rs to run here or there. In many cases, very few are going to realize a complete verbal call. The offense has designated coaches to direct the runners (many of whom haven't the slightest idea how to coach) and defenders are not lacking in help from teammates. Step up and give a safe signal.

IMO, over-officiating redundancy. Don't know what sect of the game initiated the mechanic, but I have a good idea :rolleyes:

Mike, I think that it is a good signal, as we communicate what we saw, even if everyone else saw it. And, for the record, we are communicating "no infraction", not "safe."

Would you consider pointing "fair" as over-officiating and redundant? :D

Dave, we follow ESF. That's the Europe Softball Federation. They use the rule set from the ISF. ISF is following the ASA rule set only a few years later... So it might be that in a couple a years we as well are yelling "SAFE" on a trapped ball.;) (I guess not) Shmuelg is using ESF as well in Israel.

I think the mechanic yelling "SAFE / No catch" is wrong, not only different.
Signaling "SAFE" looks to much on a baseball-machanic, IMO, so there's onter reason why I'm not willing to use that machanic. I'm a softball-ump. not a small-baller.

Background info on the latter:
ISF wants national federations (the most located in Europe) with a baseball and softball-devision to separate. I agree with that, although that's gonna cost a lot. Here in the Neth.'s softball brings in the most Euro's for our national federation; but the most money is spent by our baseball-devision... So ,for me, separate them!

Now think about it, Class. If you see INT, what do you do? ? ? Anyone? That's right, we hold up both arms with the palms facing forward and kill the play.

Okay, let's move onto the next situation. If you observe OBS, what do you do? Bueller, are you here for this one? Hello? Anyone else? That's correct, we extend our left arm to indicate a DDB. Can you repeat after me? Delayed-Dead-Ball. Very good, Class.

Now, let's step this up a notch. If there is some sort of interaction between an offensive player and a defensive player and you, as the umpire, determine there is no infraction, what do you need to do? C'mon, I know this is a hard one, but I know you all know the answer to this one. Anyone? Hmmmm......Okay, Class, let's look at it this way. If you are a player or coach or a spectator and you observe some level of interaction on the field between a runner and a fielder and the umpire makes no signal or call of any type, what do you have? Lil' Johnny, can you answer this without using that potty mouth of yours? Yes, Johnny, what do you have? What was that? That's correct, during that play there was...


NOTHING!
NO INFRACTION!


I'm sorry, Johnny, what was that last thing you said? Oh, my dear! :eek: Yes, Johnny, that's right, "not a ****ing thing" is, also, correct. Thank you.

Of course, not since it is an valid call. Something happened in which the players require a declaration as to whether continue or not.

And, BTW, Master Slick, it has not escaped many of us that your initials are BS, so watch your step or you will be back in the corner with that foul-mouthed, little ****, Johnny!

Mike, I'm of the opinion that this is a good signal. Very much like the "play on" verbal in a different game. It lets those who need to know that you've seen "it" and you've got a nothing.

As I understand it, the purpose of the "safe" signal when seeing a play where they think you should be calling something is to acknowledge that 1) yes, I saw it, too, 2) I have made a judgment, it is a "no call", and 3) coming out to argue with me is challenging judgment, so you better come out asking about the rule, or else suggesting a different angle might have additional information to add.

To me, the biggest positive is that it stops the "he wasn't looking" griping; you can disagree with my judgment, but you know I saw it, and ruled on it. Personally, I think it is a good thing, when used appropriately (and not over-used).

Well, we will just disagree. Not only do I believe it is redundant since the lack of a signal means you did not believe it was a violation or you did not see it, which in every case of which I am aware, excludes the umpire from ruling otherwise.

On top of that, I believe it is an inappropriate signal as nothing occurred to suggest a player could be safe or out since if it did, there would have been another signal and/or call.

And while we are at it, this mechanic precludes absolutely no argument. It will be no different than any other play with or without a signal. It may actually be more inviting more trouble than what it is worth. It may be looked at as just another level of debate upon which a coach can hang their hat. "Blue, I knew you saw it! Obviously there was something there which made you think there could have been an infraction, but you decided not to call it."

And doesn't this pretty much fly in the face of the "no ball, no call" philosophy?

No ball no call does not require a judgement to communicate...it is obvious.

This NCAA mechanic was discussed and implemented by a lot of great and experienced umpire minds.

It has been used at this level by alot of excellent umpires to acknowledge that the play was noticed and a judgement has been rendered.....

Alot of great umpires have used this mechanic and found it to be quite effective...and incorporated into their mechanics repertoire.

First, I agree that it's a good signal to use - properly. And I understand that Mike is dealing is dealing with all all levels of ball and all levels of skill. AND - you may well owe be a beer r 2 for this, but - Mike would & has done well at just about any level he happened to be working.
Luvvy - you're indicating in your post that you agree with the mechanic for the college level - great, it's an expectation and pretty much a requirement that. Mike ain't agreeing with it for the various levels he's got.
There's not a problem there.
I suspect that if/when someone uses the mechanic in a game he's working, he'll know what just happened. Just as much, I suspect that in a game with Mike, if he doesn't make an interference/obstruction/no tag call in his area, I'll know he was where he should have been and saw what he should have seen.
I haven't worked a game with Mike, but we've hoisted a few:p and I've worked with at least 1 of his deputies - and that she's one of the best I've had the pleasure to work with - even if she does wear a non-black face mask.:D

What??



I did get the last part...and I would suspect DC uses this mechanic when appropriate.

I am just saying....there IS a reason, place and time...thats all!!

Does that stop the coaches from coming out and questioning your judgment? Are college coaches allowed to come out and question and discuss the play?

What we really need is some empirical evidence as to the effectiveness of a safe signal in eliminating discussions between the coach and ump.

Obviously it is accepted and used at the college level but at that level you should see the play, be expected to see the play and all participants should expect a priori that blue is looking at that play. Thus, a no int/obs call indicates his/her judgment.

I'm left with it's a college thing. Just how they do it.



Maybe the distance will make them think about it but I am not sure it will stop them.

Appeal to experts. Ok. Why have not the great and experienced umpire minds in baseball or ASA implemented it?

I can agree with that but the use of the safe signal is not something most fans can see and comprehend its meaning (I speculate that). Heck the fans may not even see it as it is done in super quick fashion. I wonder how many fans see the play and then immediately look at the ump to see if he made the safe call. For that matter, how many coaches look at the ump on this play?

What is the basis for stating that is effective? Can we say that of 100 calls using this mechanic, only 2 coaches discussed versus of a 100 calls where not used, 72 coaches decided to discuss the play.

I assert that on almost any contact between a runner and f6 where a safe signal is given that one of the coaches is going to come out and ask the ump something. I can even imagine if it is with only a runner on 2nd base, the coach asking U3 to get U1's input.

So for you college guys, what is your experience when using the safe signal? What percentage of the time has it stopped a discussion?

"Appeal to experts. Ok. Why have not the great and experienced umpire minds in baseball or ASA implemented it?"

You're asking the wrong group of folks here. Ask the great minds.

"I can agree with that but the use of the safe signal is not something most fans can see and comprehend its meaning (I speculate that). Heck the fans may not even see it as it is done in super quick fashion. I wonder how many fans see the play and then immediately look at the ump to see if he made the safe call. For that matter, how many coaches look at the ump on this play?"

Don't know or care what the fans understand & think. As for the coaches, with the umpire in the right position, most will see the signal.

"I assert that on almost any contact between a runner and f6 where a safe signal is given that one of the coaches is going to come out and ask the ump something. I can even imagine if it is with only a runner on 2nd base, the coach asking U3 to get U1's input."

Coach, I was in the proper position and saw the play. What piece of information on this play did you see that I did not see?


"So for you college guys, what is your experience when using the safe signal? What percentage of the time has it stopped a discussion?"

When using this signal, I have not had a single coach come to discuss that specific play - I believe that they understand it is arguing judgement.

thanks steve.

I know some guys get riled up when you mention the "B" word on the softball board, but...

This mechanic is accepted and taught at the pro baseball schools. So, those great minds have implemented it!

Actually, there is no valid answer to Ronald's question since you do not know if the coach would have come out to discuss a non-call if you did not offer the safe sign.

Yes, just as is a DDB or Deadball signal, or lack of one.

I am not a fan of extraneous signals by umpires. Have I given an unnecessary signal? Sure, but usually beat myself up when I do it.

Just because you have a group of softball gods come up with something new doesn't mean everyone has to like it, accept it and sit back with a smile and pretend everything is peachy keen.

Tru dat!!

And I have seen it used by umpires in many Major League games.

But if a group of softball (or base****) gods come up with something new and someone does like it and accept it...they have the right to sit back with a smile and implement it into their game. Even "Little Johnny" would agree with that?

I do agree with the chance for a valid answer being hard to determine

Why? Applying your philosophy to this situation no catch = no signal. Nothing has happened except the ball hitting the ground right? Fair/foul- same thing. Why signal fair?

The difference is where the "I got nothing" safe signal came from. I'm sure you have agreed with a college mechanic at some time on here, I just haven't been able to find it.

So do you avoid using any signal that is used in baseball?

I have heard this from quite a number of softball officials and find it difficult to imagine a more lame reason for the way we officiate a softball game.

And many of these people at one time thought that prior to the start of an inning the base umpire should clean the PP while the plate umpire cleaned HP and they should break in unison and hustle back to their position.

These same people at one time suggested that when there were multiple base umpires, both were to go to a set position simultaneously.

Umpires once used to hold that arm out for OBS and run around the field like a one-winged chicken.

And the mirroring of the plate umpire when calling time! For chrissakes, will someone PLEASE kill this UNAUTHORIZED (at least, in ASA) mechanic. Haven't used it in more than a decade unless there was a defender or runner still active in my area of the field. However, there are still some old school folks including a failure to do this in an umpire's ratings from a national. How can you gig an umpire for not performing a mechanic that is not in the manual? A game using a 3 or 4 umpire system.....oh, wait, we cannot use a 4-umpire system because it isn't in the manual ;)...okay, a 3-umpire system and all at one time every umpire throws their arms into the air as if Jesse James just appeared with a gun.

We, also, used to return to a set position after a play was over only to look like an idiot staring at an empty base as all the players are already moving back into position.

Then there is the Elbeco shirt which, if you wanted a good rating, better have a military press. And let us not forget the patent leather belts and shoes of which the umpires were so proud. Umpires at one time, also, wore ties and jackets. Yeah, love to have to have been in that uniform in August in OKC!

So, after all these years of trying to minimalize the umpire's visability on the field, these "gods" have determined it is best to begin using what can only be described as preemptive signals to communicate what one did not see? Yeah, it would be easier to sell me on a timing play indicator than this.

Are you suggesting the "underswing of both arms" instead of the safe signal?

Well, that's a sign pf progress! ;) :p :D

Just a thought. The OP called for ball hit in the infield. My situation/mechanic question is: In a 3-Umpire system, ball hit to the outfield. BU goes out (per mechanics). Ball hits the ground PRIOR to going into fielder's glove. Does the BU give a SAFE signal (implying no catch), or does he/she just stand there? If he/she does give a NO CATCH signal, then why is this different than the OP? Again, just asking to see if I have been using the wrong mechanic (wouldn't be a first).

Serg

I don't believe there has been any disagreement offering a safe sign for a trapped/near trapped ball in either the IF or OF.

Great list!! Thank goodness for progress!!!

Cecil,
No, not at all. If I'm using a signal, I want it understood.

Yep, as long as it is moving toward the positive, something we don't see much of anymore.

I may be mistaken, but I do believe I read in the package sent to me this year from OKC that at the Nationals, base umpires "may" mirror the plate umpire's signal for time.

At the NUS, we were instructed to only do it if circumstances require it (such as a runner still going full steam after the PU has called "time" 15 times).

Yes, I've seen this year's letter. And the letters include "may" or "can", but it is not in the manual. I have little doubt this is because there are some areas where the older mechanics are still lingering because it's "just the way we do it."

However, I have received calls from Nationals asking me about this because this person said this or that. I'm talking about member of the NUS or a tournament asst. UIC, with shock in their voice when I say we haven't used it for more than a decade except as you not above, when necessary. Otherwise, it is just another unnecessary signal with an umpire standing still in the middle of the infield while those around him/her are moving into position to resume play.

Please note that I am not stating the signal should scrapped. It is necessary at times when there are still players active or looking for an indication the play is done as Dave cited from the school.

Off course not! However those "typical for baseball" (as a pointed strike to the side instead of a hamered one) I avoid.

Does you question mean, that you think softball is "baseball for girls"? It sure does sound like that!

The two sports, imo, have common roots but are complete different. Just as poker and black-jack...

O Irish, I think Serg hamered it right on the nail!
If, and in 3-umpire system (or less) I rather do not [different discussion], a BU goes out for the outfield to call the (nearly) trapped hitted ball he CAN/MUST use the safe signal. In the infield, however, I prefer "the fair hitted ball"-signal for a just uncaught ball.

Maybe it is in the translation, but on a line drive up the middle that was trapped by F6, you would stand on the line an point fair?

Here's what you said:

Hence, my question.

???? I guess you get another "translation" pass for this. Last one from me, however.

Not on the line, but I do point to the ground, yes.