(From 2020)While Smokey Gets Another Cold One....
 

.....well, I'm sure they are cold when he starts typing :rolleyes:

My view:

I don't have a problem with an ASA umpire working NCAA or NFHS. I do have a problem with an ASA umpire working the other alphabets while NOT supporting ASA.

I have seen umpires suck up the umpire training and development from ASA and completely dismiss working any ASA games. IMO, if you want to work AFA, NSA, SNA, ISC, USFA, PONY, USSSA and not ASA, you should go to them for training. I'm sure it sounds ridiculous to some of you, but some of these organizations have hijacked ASA's training and used it as their own. This is the reason commissioners are to sign off on applications to the Biennial National UIC Clinic.

I am disappointed that when NCAA initiated a softball umpiring program, ASA was summarily dismissed. As related to me at the first satellite clinic, the NCAA didn't want to be perceived as using umpires "that worked little girl's games". Just where do they think THEIR players and THEIR umpires started? Shame on both ASA and the NCAA for not getting together and working out a partnership here. However, with the arrogance often shown at the NCAA level of operations, that probably would never happen.

I don't get umpires, and there are a few even in my small little area, who reach NCAA ball and all of a sudden, they are too good or elevated to be involved as something so menial as ASA ball.

It amazes me how some umpires can adjust work and social schedules, spend a fair amount of money to make that much more working games miles and hours away, but cannot set aside a few hours a year to attend a clinic or two which is being held for one reason only and that is to help umpires keep sharp and up to date. And before someone says it, simply working games does not keep an umpire sharp. If anything, that is where the umpire tends to become lazy especially toward the end of a long season. All of a sudden they are working a playoff game and someone points out a few flaws of which the umpire wasn't aware.

I believe that would depend on the circumstances and any issues in their local association (state/metro). Selections, and the processed utilized, for championship play, including nationals, varies by association. AFAIC, there are three requirements to be sent away to a tournament: 1) ASA National School, 2) support (umpire) the State/Metro Championship Tournaments and 3) knowledge and proper application of ASA rules and mechanics.

What an umpire does on the weekends that I cannot put him/her on the field is their business and if they want to work for XYZ, that is up to them. However, when I need that umpire for a state tournament, I should not have to fight to get them to work a few games.

If you haven't figured it out, I'm a firm believer in the old expression and the many quoted variations of loyalty, "Dance with the one that brung ya". Or in the case of umpiring, "movin' up doesn't have to mean movin' on."

I couldnt agree with you more...... Occasionally you get one right..... :-)

Well I agree with Darrell.. and .. not much more to be added to your post mike. Well said. :D

Lets not make this a habit..Im used to you being wrong....:D

Not to mention those who ump HS & NCAA, but won't show up for travel or other "summer" ball because of the lower fees.

The OP includes "And before someone says it, simply working games does not keep an umpire sharp. If anything, that is where the umpire tends to become lazy especially toward the end of a long season. All of a sudden they are working a playoff game and someone points out a few flaws of which the umpire wasn't aware."

My sig certainly agrees with not just working. Feedback and critiques are needed, along with the refresher instruction Mike is promoting. However, actual umpiring does keep us sharp and rust sets in quickly. Also, umpiring other sanctions keeps the basics sharp, even if the differences need review going from one to the other.

Don't know where the lazy part comes from, don't think I get lazy, but maybe because of just weekends after school season. :confused:

Mike,

Believe it or not, I too agree with your points. If an ASA trained umpire shuns the group that trained them to go work age group ball elsewhere, that does not sit well. I, for one, know dozens of us that work softball every weekend throughout the year. Other than NCAA, 98.6 percent of the rest is ASA. At every level asked.

When our local ASA association had the clinics and camps in January before the NCAA season started, we all were there. Even in the years when we weren't required.

Unfortunately, they stopped having that early season mechanics camps and we made the choice to keep our college weekend intact rather than become tournament certified.

As I am not "championship certified" I am seldom asked to work championship play. But, as the past proves, anytime they are in a pinch, I provided whatever help I can.

If I missed any points, forgive me. I am in the middle of watching my son's game. Sober.

Smokey

Smokey,

Please understand and accept that I was not referring to you or referencing your post.

You simply provided a segue to a point of passion which I have concerning umpires and their priorities/loyalties. Many on this board are aware of those feelings, did not mean to rile you.:cool::D

Mike,
It's getting late Saturday and I've had a few of those cold ones.
I'd hope that I'm in an unusual situation/area in ASA - I know that Big Slick's area is very different and I believe your whole state is very different. And I really hope that my ASA district commissioner is unique. I do not work local league games any more - just so I'm not seen as supporting something the local commissioner does. I do go watch a number of those games, because umpires in my local chapter are working them and they just might watch to hear what I've seen. I attend the district/state clinic each year and went to a national school and I'll do one or two state tournaments a year. That's all done no good as far as advancing to an ASA national. The high schoold and college seasons do not conflict with any summer schedules, so there's no issue there. I go to PONY and ISC weekends and have done pretty well with those groups. I've even gotten into NPF ball this year. I no longer hope for or expect anything from ASA - it's a waste of time for anyone in PA's district 4. And, at this point in time, I just don't care any more. However, I'm still arrogant enough to think I would have represented ASA pretty well.

It seems to me someone should kick some tail in PA. Its a disgrace.

Mike, after watching a little Mighty Mite football this afternoon (my 8-old got only 6 sacs, an off day) I had a frosty barely pop or two with the team fathers. After that, I took the long drive home and suddenly, it hit me. You weren't blasting me. You were blasting the people you discribed. I'm sorry for the outlandish defense.

But (I'm simply playing devil's advocate here, so please play along nicely), you gotta admit, it is both enticing and a lot easier to justify leaving the wife and kids for another weekend to make a couple thousand dollars than it is to make $200-$300 or volunteer elsewhere.

It is NOT ABOUT THE MONEY, but it is something to think about.

You know that I'm non-confrontational, so pretend that this is someone else that just ticked you off, OK?

Smokey:)

when your talking 2 grand in a w/e thats straight scrilla and thats about the money. I'm all about that.


One thing I've found with SOME pac10 guys though... once they come back to ASA/lower pay stuff... sometimes you will hear the ole ... if this was a college game I'd be making such and such and would do such and such.

So sometimes its not really worth while to have the big pac 10 guy on the field at a nonNCAA event.

Plus if they see a D1 coach in the stands, that have to go nuzzle the ole brown eye a little between innings..

SOME OF THEM.. definitely not all, because plenty of PAC10 umps have taught me invaluable stuff.

I would love to say that I have never seen that. But, I cannot say that. Different philosophies for different umpires.

For other umpires, every game is the most important game that is being played that day, and they give every thing they have. I like to work with those umpires.

This spring a 3-time WCWS umpire was identified while working a one-man 10u game. When the parent asked the umpire why in the world they are there for that game, the umpire responded, "For the same reason, you are. For them".

I love that story.

That is why we umpire....

Smokey

I think umpires in my area may be lucky in this regard. I work HS games with partners I know have been everywhere and worked everything, but you would never know it unless you asked them. They just go out and work their game and show how good they are.

This is why I don't go talking about how I've done this game, I've been to that tournament: Eventually you'll run into an umpire whose resume puts yours to shame. ;) I just go out and do the best I can.

I like that story too.

SteveM is in a unique situation and I understand from where he is coming. Personally, I would probably take a different approach and work ASA ball just to irritate that particular person. But that is me just being the obnoxious smart *** I can be. :rolleyes:

We all umpire for different reasons. In my 43 years of umpiring, I have never worked for the money or the players. Whether it was baseball or softball, I umpired for the game. Have I worked games for nothing? Yep. Would I work every game for nothing? Nope. Regardless of the reason, I don't believe there is a real sports official who at one time or another receive and work an assignment they would rather not have worked. But we do the game anyway because as with everything in life, there is always a less attractive side which must be accommodated.

When I umpire, whether locally or on the road, there is no need to justify the assignment, it is well known I umpire because it is what I do. OTOH, I will not seek nor accept an assignment which will place a financial burden on my family.

Back to the point, umpires need to exercise some sense of loyalty to those placing them in a position to do well on the field. And yes, my area is a bit different from others as (and I know you are probably tired of hearing this) all training save a State School is open to all and free of charge. Unfortunately, that may change before next season.

SteveM, in our state (Georgia), you don't have to register ASA through an Association, the Zone or District; particularly if you feel they don't represent or support you effectively. Umpires can register from another area, or as independents, and are eligible for all assignments handled by the State staff. In that way, the State UIC (and his designees, when he delegates) can also use those identified as qualified umpires when desired, even if the local doesn't promote them.

We also, like Mike, require a minimum number of ASA assignments (with a minimum number of local assignments, too, if applicable), to make sure the umpires are supporting their local and ASA, not just sitting back and getting cherry assignments, while working XYZ ball. So, it isn't a one way street, allowing the umpires to thumb their noses at the local needs.

If that opportunity doesn't exist in PA, perhaps you could suggest it to Luau, who might be able to start a program like that.

As I understand it, there is blanket policy of national opportunity in PA.

Which should be a violation of ASA code. That should be grounds for dismissal.

Wade,
That's not quite right - other districts, under other commissioners, have sent quite a few umpires to various nationals. If I've given the impression that it's state wide, I've given the wrong impression. I've only spoken about district 4 in Pa.

**nothing quite like hitting enter and then realizing you've fat-fingered something. So I edited and corrected.

Well thats good. It should be even easier to get rid of that person then. It is is terrible that that commish is being allowed to treat ASA Umpires in such a contemptuous manner.

I had sworn off replying on this board but saw this thread and had to say something.

It doesn't just make me mad, it pi$$e$ me off when umpires take OUR organization's training and go use it to help train others and/or to use their wares in LL, NSA, USSSA or some other organization.

I am loyal to a fault (apparently to the chagrin of a few) to ASA and to our local Seattle association. Our local association deal with three groups: ASA, NFHS and NCAA (and JUCO ball, which up here uses NCAA rules and mechanics). We have some of the best training around. It was my pleasure to have been a part of that. I think we did ok judging from those who have had national assignments and performed at an extremely high level over the past six years. I can't and wouldn't claim full or even much of the partial credit for that, but am grateful I used to be part of it.

The ones who pi$$ me off, though, are the ones who are, at best, half-a$$ed umpires who are not only stealing our money by working for other associations but stealing our time and attention by taking our training then working for some other outfit.

John,

What if an umpire was trained in another organization and took those skills into yours and became successful there?

Smokey

Did they have to compensate the organization for that time and attention?

John....here is another take on this.

Would you expect to pay your tuition and go to college and, upon graduation, have the college (or university) tell you that now that you have completed your studies, you can only use the information you obtained from them working for this one company for the rest of your life? Of course not. Upon graduation you are free to seek employment with whoever you choose.

I have never attended an ASA clinic where I did not have to pay a fee. The fee entitles me to the information to use however I see fit.

Actually, there are programs like this around the country, but that would be the exception.

I have never given a clinic (locally) where the umpire was asked to pay. And just out of curiosity, what would you consider the fair market value of such information? Would a discounted rate demand some level of reciprocity on the umpire's behalf?

What if the umpire's association mandates attendence to a particular clinic? Whom would be financially responsible for such a clinic? If paid for by the association, would the umpire still be free to take this information elsewhere for their personal benefit?

We could go on with this forever.

I think the college/university argument doesn't hold true in many cases. It may depend upon who's paying the tuition.

In many cases, a student's parents foot the bill and/or are augmented by student loans.

In some cases, a student may have received an outside scholarship, usually a fixed amount and small percentage of the overall cost, which carries no reciprocity stipulations.

Some students are fortunate to receive academic/scholastic or sports scholarships which may cover either a small or large percentage of the bill.

Then there are many programs into which a student may enroll which will require some amount of "payback" on behalf of the student. The military colleges and ROTC programs are the most common.

Then there may be incentives from specific companies which may agree to send someone for a higher degree in return for a promise of "x" years of staying on with that particular firm.

My masters degree was largely paid for by the company I was employed by at the time. They covered tuition and a portion of the expenses for books. I needed to get myself to the classes and receive a pre-determined grade for the course(s). There were no strings in this arrangement and I could leave to seek employment elsewhere at any time.

Some auto dealerships offer [maybe not any more?] 3-5 year extended training and education for mechanics to become certified in various aspects of auto repair and maintenance in return for the employee's promise to stay there for some amount of time after training.

Now, all that being said, I don't believe there is a requirement relative to ASA training that someone, anyone, can't use whatever they learn at any ASA clinics to work other associations. I do understand the loyalty aspect of "dance with who brung ya", but I still maintain, without having statistical evidence, that all the alphabet softball associations are probably 80% the same and 20% different. Maybe it's even closer to 90-10, I don't know.

In my 30 years as a player, I've only ever played ASA ball. That started in the Air Force and continued in various leagues I played in after I got out. The couple of UICs who recruited me to become an umpire were both ASA guys. In fact, until I became an ASA umpire, I was naively unaware that there even were other associations. I'd never heard of USSSA, NSA, etc. I'd heard of Little League and Babe Ruth, but only as related to my son's playing baseball, not as softball associations.

So I'm certified as ASA, and this year became certified w/ NFHS. The reason I did so was based on some suggestions from umpire associates and the fact that I was available to do some high school games. And I learned that NFHS was probably on the order of 95% the same as ASA, again not via hard statistical analysis, just by printing out the differences from ASA, NFHS, and NCAA from the ASA website.

At this point, I get enough games with the two associations I'm certified in with no need or desire to expand into other groups. My memory stick is full enough, and I'm not likely to expand on that capacity.

I guess I'm loyal as a result. But I can see why others might go in other directions. I leave that decision to them, and I don't hold anything against them because they may have learned their craft from ASA and use it elsewhere.

Most of the clinics I've attended, both NFHS and ASA have been "free", although there are annual dues to both. I did attend 1 NUS when they were in my local area. I would LOVE to attend the FP school, but I simply am not in a position to afford that expense.

Learn a craft, pay your dues, remain as loyal as you can, enjoy your work/craft/trade, move forward when you can.

We have broached this subject before, and as I have previously stated, you seem to be the exception rather than the rule.

Even more exceptional (based on this area) if you actually attempt to present anything more than a reading of the year's rule changes.

I live on the border of a very big state. Our ASA district has not sent anyone to a national or even a state tournament for the three years I have been affiliated with them. My bordering state sends a ton of umpires to all kinds of nationals. I have been asked to dual register by their state UIC and have held off for now. I believe that I have one more year of loyalty left in me and then I'm a hired gun.

I have never attended a clinic that I haven't paid for. LOL. I even paid for some of them, attended, and then was asked to help teach. I have no problem with that, though. To keep an organization strong and in tune, there has to be money to support the powers above that make the descions, and drive the Lexuses. LOL

I believe that every association should charge something. Even if the facilities are donated and the materials are supplied, there should be something monetarily generated to at least pay for the lunch for the volunteers and maybe cover some undonated costs. There are so many little costs that none of us realize that add up and either come from the association or from the attendees. The attendees should pay for them. Not the organizers.

Smokey

Smokey,
Unless they have a portfolio pretty close to yours we have required them to go through at least part of our training, including classroom instruction and on the field observation at both plate and base.

On the pay issue:
It has been our M.O. the past few years to NOT make them pay for the training per se. However, they do not receive a new rule book nor set foot on the field for observation until they sign a contract and pay their $60 association registration fee. The fee includes their association dues and ASA dues. This act also covers them under our L&I rules in WA state should they be injured on the field.

So...they don't pay for the training, but they can't complete ALL the training until they pay their association dues.

Do we have some who show for the classroom and never appear for on the field? Yep. Do some of them take what they've learned and use it somewhere else? Yep. Do some of them just find out they don't like it and just don't come back? Yep. Do I know how many? Nope...but I know it happens.

I guess it's time for me to come clean. I joined NSA this year. The reason for doing that is pretty simple. I wanted to work more games, especially since my DD was not playing summer ball this year. In this area, ASA just does not have many tournaments, and by that I mean there might be one in my district each year. I have done every thing but get down on my knees and begged for the chance to work tournaments, but never get a response. Every year I see my district UIC at all the ASA clinics and schools, and I usually work at least one volleyball match with him, and I always mention to him that I really want to work, and nothing happens. If I lived in Terre Haute or Indianapolis, or maybe Merrillville I suppose I might get a chance to work some games, but in this area ASA is only active in slow pitch, and I don't get asked to do many of those games either. I've pretty much determined that my UIC doesn't like me, for whatever reason. I know I'm not an easy person to like...I'm a very quiet person who keeps to myself and wants to get home to my family when I'm done instead of meeting for adult beverages...but I really don't know what I might have done to fall in disfavor with him.

So I decided to join NSA. I submitted my registration on a Tuesday and that same weekend I was working a tournament. I was asked to show up on Friday at 4:00, and since I wanted to watch a game to see the umpires work I showed up at 3:00 and found the UIC. She asked me to get dressed and go work the bases on a game that was starting in 5 minutes. I worked four games that night, and nine the next day. She wanted me to work on Sunday also, but I could barely move after all those games. Heck, I hadn't worked 13 ASA fast pitch games in the six years I've been a part of ASA. I've worked a couple of other NSA tournaments since then, and I could not be happier about the fact that I have had some excellent partners, and that they are just as pleased to work with me as I am to work with them. My partners have always complimented my rules knowledge, my mechanics and my hustle, and my UIC has had nothing but good things to say about my umpiring. That has relieved my insecurity that perhaps my ASA UIC didn't like me because I sucked as an umpire. Yes, I always give credit to my ASA training whenever I am complimented.

Yes, I have taken my (paid) ASA training to work NSA games. I also took that (paid) ASA training to work NFHS games in previous years. It wasn't an easy decision for me to start working NSA. For three years, I was being recruited by an NSA guy to go work for them. I resisted because I do love ASA, and I am a loyal person. I bought in to that perception that NSA umpires sucked. My experience is that they are very good umpires, and nice people as well. I'm 100% sure that I will work NSA again, and I'm 100% sure that I will continue to join ASA just so I can have that card in my wallet, even though I know I won't get any games from them. I'm not asking for forgiveness, just sharing my personal experiences as someone who has taken that excellent ASA training that is second to none and applied it to a different organization.

Not sure a particular affiliation can stake propriatory claim (no matter how much they wish they could) on a particular set of rules or mechanics.
Whether it is MLB, NFL, NBA or some of our amateur national governing body (ie..ASA, NCAA) softball groups. Now.. they could make us employees and have us sign a non-disclosure contract!! :rolleyes:

IMO, you give priority to your org. Thats loyalty and fluffy stuff.

Working buys a grocery. That about as real as your ***.

If no ASA work is there, work for whoever.

I have a similar situation blitzkrieg, men's ball went NAFA a few yeas back. If I want to work men's ball (which I need to because I would like to work my way up to the major mens (including ASA) nats or ISC world's) then NAFA is my only option to work in terms of league tourney play and to become known in that "realm".

Don't believe that is the issue. Not so much of what it is, but how and why it is used.