Infield fly rule, sorta

rmein · #1 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 11:27am

Line-drive to the SS w/ runners on first and second and one out. SS appears to attempt to catch the ball but bats it down directly in front of him. Runner on second takes off for third. SS picks it up and steps on second then attempts to get the advancing runner. The runner is safe on a throwing error. Then the batter apparently never advanced first (who knows why). SS then tosses the ball to first for a double play.

Is the infield-fly rule in effect here (on a line drive)or should the DP stand?

Del-Blue · #2 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 11:48am

A line drive IS NOT an infield fly. This sounds like a HTBT play, but if I thought the SS intentionally dropped the ball, I would have a dead ball, Batter out on the intentionally dropped ball.

WestMichBlue · #3 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 11:49am

Ball must rise "appreciable" height to be called IF. No IF on bunts or line drives.

St. Louis Blue · #4 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 11:59am

I agree with Del-Blue. If I think he dropped it on person, BR out, dead ball, all runners return. I have done this several times as a player and have never been called. The trick is to just not close the glove very completely and let the ball pop out right in front of you. Having said that, I use the fielders reaction to help determine whether I think it was intentional.

Dakota · #5 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 01:28pm

For ASA, the ball must be legally caught and then dropped to be an intentionally dropped ball.

Guiding the ball to the ground, batting it to the ground with the glove, letting the ball bounce out of the glove, or intentionally not catching it is a legal play.

As described, this is neither a IF (because, as already noted, a line drive cannot be in IF) nor is it an intentionally dropped ball, because it was never legally caught.

Roger Greene · #6 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 02:43pm

Fed and USSSA do not allow the fielder to intentionally manipulate the ball to the ground in this situation. There is a Fed case play in which the fielder uses the back of her glove to slap the fly ball to the ground, and then pick it up. The ruling is the same as if the ball is intentionally dropped.

Pony does not have anything other that the 8.11.h rule which states "If a fielder intentionally drops..." (or I least I didn't see it in the POE section.)

Roger Greene

[Edited by Roger Greene on Jul 17th, 2002 at 03:00 PM]

Dakota · #7 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 02:49pm

ASA is explicit about it - see POE 28 - the fielder must catch and then drop.

whiskers_ump · #8 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 05:22pm

Is the infield fly in effect - No. Line drive.
Should the double play stand? - Yes

I agree with Tom on POE #28 however, I believe that
Del-Blue stated correctly that it was a HTBT type
play. Was it guided or intentionally dropped? Was not
there, can't honestly say.

glen

Roger Greene · #9 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 10:18pm

Just got back from a ball game and had a reply from the East Zone Pony umpire's site. The East Zone UIC, Jim Morfino, states that the Pony rulling is like Dakota gave for ASA.
To be dropped a ball must first be caught. Also, he states manipulating the ball to the ground without catching it would be legal.

Roger Greene

Dakota · #10 (**permalink**) Wed Jul 17, 2002, 11:58pm

Quote:

Originally posted by whiskers_ump
I agree with Tom on POE #28 however, I believe that
Del-Blue stated correctly that it was a HTBT type
play. Was it guided or intentionally dropped? Was not
there, can't honestly say.

Glen, you and Del-Blue are, of course, correct that you have to see it. I just assumed from the description that it was not a legal catch. Might be a bad assumption.

rmein · #11 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 18, 2002, 09:00am

The ball was never caught. The fielder used his mitt (not sure which part as I was in RF) to bat the ball down. He definitely never closed his glove around the ball.

With this being a B-League softball game w/o an ump, the other captain and I ruled the batter was out and runners returned to first and second. It didn't really matter that we apparently blew the call and robbed our team of a DP as we got a pop-up for the last out of the inning on the very next pitch (and ended up winning 19-7). Thanks for the insight.

David Emerling · #12 (**permalink**) Thu Jul 25, 2002, 10:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Dakota
For ASA, the ball must be legally caught and then dropped to be an intentionally dropped ball.

Guiding the ball to the ground, batting it to the ground with the glove, letting the ball bounce out of the glove, or intentionally not catching it is a legal play.

As described, this is neither a IF (because, as already noted, a line drive cannot be in IF) nor is it an intentionally dropped ball, because it was never legally caught.

*************

So, let me ask you: In the above situation (R1 & R2), if a linedrive is hit toward the 2nd baseman and she just allows the ball to hit her closed glove, causing the ball to fall to the ground ... you're saying, no matter how obvious it is that she intentional this may appear, it is not considered an "intentionally dropped" ball? Therefore, she can pick it up and get a double play?

Steve M · #13 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 26, 2002, 05:53am

David,
For ASA, that is correct. ASA has a POE - I think it's 24 or 25 - which sez a couple of things:
1 - For a ball to be intentionally dropped, there must be a catch first.
2 - Merely guiding the ball to the ground is not an intentionally dropped ball.

That they used the word "merely" always struck me as ASA's being pretty emphatic about this.

David Emerling · #14 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 26, 2002, 09:47am

Quote:

Originally posted by Steve M
David,
For ASA, that is correct. ASA has a POE - I think it's 24 or 25 - which sez a couple of things:
1 - For a ball to be intentionally dropped, there must be a catch first.
2 - Merely guiding the ball to the ground is not an intentionally dropped ball.

That they used the word "merely" always struck me as ASA's being pretty emphatic about this.

************

This seems ludicrous.

The spirit of the "intentionally dropped ball" rule has always been the prevention of a cheap-o double play by the defense. By not catching a catchable ball, the fielder forces runners to advance, and forces them out.

This is particularly true with regards to a line drive.

Baseball has a similar rule [6.05(l)], but it is not interpreted in the bizarre manner that is described here.

In baseball, a dropped ball is one that is dropped ... and not CAUGHT. It seems you're saying that, in softball, for the purposes of this rule, a dropped ball is one that is CAUGHT ... then dropped. This defeats the whole purpose of the rule, which should be to prevent the fielders from FORCING the runners into a situation where they HAVE to run, thus laying the groundwork for a cheap-o double play.

If a fielder is allowed to CATCH the ball, then the batter is OUT! If he subsequently drops the ball, I don't see the purpose of killing the play since the runners are no longer obliged to run. Why invoke this rule once the fielder has made a legitimate catch just because he should allow it to fall out of his glove afterwards? It makes no sense.

Steve M · #15 (**permalink**) Fri Jul 26, 2002, 10:15am

David,
I do tend to agree with you on this. I see a difference between knocking a ball down and guiding the ball down - on paper. But I do need to say that I just have not seen this kind of a play happen in better levels.

Steve M