Tagup Responsibilities
 

Need some help here as I do not have an ASA mechanics manual.

What are the correct tagup responsibilities (as being taught at ASA national/regional schools&clinics) for a 2 MAN CREW-SLOW PITCH?

Irish? NCASA? Any of you other guys who have recently attended the national school? Can you guys set me straight.
Thamks in advance.

Simple.

Plate Umpire always has a runner that's on 3B.

Base Umpire always has a runner that's on 1B.

If there are multiple runners, the plate umpire always has the lead runner, and the base umpire always has all other runners.

Make sense? :)

KJUmp pointed out to me that I forgot one scenario.

Lone runner on 2B is the Base Umpire's call.

I'll also mention that the only time any of this changes is if the Base Umpire goes out to call fair/foul (which should NEVER happen when the Base Umpire is in B, or I'll f'ing smack you), or if the Base Umpire goes out to call the catch/no catch.

General rule of thumb is that if the Base Umpire turns his/her back to the infield, the catch/no catch is now his/hers. However, if you're the Base Umpire and you do this, do it right: GO OUT THERE. Make it clear to your partner that you're going out to make the call by calling out "one man" or "going," and move your butt out of the infield to make the call.

Sorry for forgetting that. :)

Simpler yet:
The PU only has tag-up for runners on 3rd or the lead of multiple runners.

I'm in USSSA. Mens slow pitch. 2 man crew. With any runners on base, BU is positioned just inside of 2B before the pitch. So if there's only a runner on first, how is the BU supposed to watch a (routine) fly to left for catch/no catch AND watch the runner at first tagging?

We have BU taking the tag for any runner at 2B (even if there are multiple runners), and PU will have all other tags.

I"m not saying that's necessarily the correct mechanic--just that that's what we do. But it makes sense to me. With a runner on 2B (even if he's the lead runner), the BU can always position himself (inside the bag) so that he's aligned with the bag and the outfielder.

That may be true for USSSA. The question was for ASA.

gotcha. out of curiosity, then: in ASA with a man on first and a fly ball to left, the base umpire is supposed to have the catch and the tag?

that seems extremely odd to me. why wouldn't home plate take the tag here? I mean, there's only two things happening--why have one guy do both?:)

In your situation, in ASA, the BU can not have both calls. Either the BU goes out to call the catch and the PU has the tag-up, or the PU has the catch and the BU has the tag-up. Once the BU goes out to call the catch, he's done for the rest of the play - once you go out, you stay out.

There are always going to be problems inherent to the 2-umpire system when it comes to tag-up coverage. If tourneys or leagues don't want to pay for a 3-umpire crew (and who could blame them, since it increases the cost by 50%), then they just have to accept that we will do the best we can.

I think ASA keeps it pretty simple with the tag-up responsibilities in a 2-umpire system, demonstrated by the fact that it took only a few sentences to describe who has which runner. If we start getting into left field versus right field versus center field, that would add a layer of complexity that no organization with 40,000+ umpires is ready to deal with.

Personally, I've not had that big a problem with it in 17 years.

What sounds odd to me is why the base umpire would call the routine catch?? Calling catch/no catch is reserved for "going out", which certainly isn't appropriate for a "routine" fly ball.

Let the PU make the routine call, and the BU has the runner; every part of the runner, the tag, the advance to 2nd (if it happens), the return play back to 1st (if it happens). If BU concentrates on the catch (versus first touch), then he will lose the release point by the runner.

If the ball drops, PU picks up the lead runner into 3rd, BU still has 1st and 2nd, like always.

Not to mention the fact that if the PU does his f'ing job (how sad that there's a converse to that statement), he should be at least halfway up the line (or more) to 3B anyway to get a good view of both the runner and the catch. The PU has no better view to a runner on 1B than the BU. :)

More questions
 

I had a situation where I would've loved to know the rule right off the top of my head last night. My base ump (the senior ump) told me that I had the catch and all tag ups. But when I was the plate ump, and lead runner at 2nd didn't tag up, and I was button hooking in on an outfield fly, and the pitcher appealed it, the plate ump pointed at ME, like it was MY call! Does anyone know any rules I can reference for this situation?

I'm going to assume that you're asking about ASA's mechanics (as opposed to something else like USSSA or NSA).

The mechanics I mentioned in this thread should apply to your situation. Study them, learn them. Fortunately, they're pretty easy. They're also on page 253 of your rule book.

In your specific situation, you had a runner at 2B (R1), and I'm assuming you had a runner (R2) on 1B (by the fact that you mention that R1 was a "lead runner"). The plate umpire should have R1, and the base umpire should have R2.

Now, I'm a little confused by the fact that in your post, you mention that you're the plate umpire, and that your partner was the plate umpire. Which is it? :)

Let's say you were the plate umpire and your partner was on the bases. If that's the case, then yes, the runner on 2B was yours. If you were on the bases and your partner was the plate umpire, then he should normally not have signaled to you UNLESS he didn't see it. He probably either got blocked or he screwed up somewhere. If he points to you on a call that was his, he's giving it up to you. If you didn't see it, call safe, don't call an out that you didn't see.

Just my two cents.

OK, that's an interesting point. In my scenario, I've got the BU making the catch/no catch call even if he's not going out. So your response at least answers my question about why one guy would do both.

Buuut, I guess I still have another question, and I suppose it's one of general mechanics. With a runner on first, I assume the ASA BU's pre-pitch position is around 2nd base? If so, he's never going to be able to have both the touch and the tag in front of him. Maybe if it's down the RF line. But anything to center or left is going to require him to see first touch then whip his head around to see when the runner releases. There's going to be a gap. Unless he's only LISTENING for first touch, which I dont imagine he's doing.

So I guess I come back to: with (just) a man on first, isn't the home plate umpire in a better position to rule on first touch vs. runner leaving?

Really? The BU is in between the first touch and the runner on 1B. That is to say, the runner is behind him. However quick he is to turn his head and eyes after first touch, he's still going to have to turn them.

The PU is behind both the runner and the defensive first touch. Everything's in front of him. The amount of head/eye turning he has to do is definitely less than that required of the BU.

Right?

With a runner on 1st (or no runners on), the pre-pitch position is behind the 2nd baseman, and shaded toward the first base side. If the F4 plays extremely deep, then "behind" becomes behind a line drawn between the F4 and F3, again shaded toward first base. Only if F4 is deep AND shifted way around on a big lefty does the BU get anywhere near 2nd base.

After buttonhooking into the infield as the ball is hit into left field, the BU has almost the exact same view and angle, if not better, as the PU who is hustling down the third base line to see the catch. So, as NCASAUMP said, if PU is doing his job, and BU is properly doing his job, then it makes no sense for PU to call the tag occuring about 90' away behind his right ear, when the BU can see it from 20' away in his peripheral vision.

Ah, ok. I definitely assumed some positioning similarities between ASA and USSSA that clearly don't exist!:) (At least not in the U-trip league I was schooled in.)

Our BU's, with any runners on any base, are always just inside 2B, cheating a step or towards 1B.

BU's don't go out on balls, even ones that are going to be questionable on the catch--which I think is definitely weird. They're always inside the basepaths. And the BU's have just about every out call in the outfield, routine or otherwise. One exception: nobody on base, someone hits a high fly down the RF line. BU will run from his starting position (behind 1B) to get in position to rule on a potential play at 2B, and the PU will have the catch/no catch in right.

Thanks for the replies--even though there was some unwitting "apples and oranges" going on there!

We switch up every game. So the first game, I was the plate ump, trying to call all of the tag ups. The second game, I was the base ump, thinking he would do the same, as he was the plate ump for the second game.

Thanks for the page reference!

Apparently, you misunderstood what he told you:So, YOU have the tag ups, regardless! Base or plate! :D

Tom, quit confusing the poor guy. ;)

I've had the same issues w/ tagup responsibilities w/ runner on 1B.

Virtually any line drive to an outfielder doesn't give me time to come inside while also trying to watch both catch and tag at the same time.

I usually try to anticipate if the runner at 1B is even fast enough to attempt a tagup and try to get to 2B. Most are not and simply just take a few steps off the base anticipating the ball will be caught.

On a high, deep drive, the runner will likely be playing it halfway or more thinking the ball will not be caught.

I've done my share of head-swiveling on some of those plays 90% of the time outside the diamond.

Only two options on this one: haul a$$ and get inside (and risk not seeing the catch/tag-up), or stay out, watch the catch/tag-up, and then move to 2B on the outside. It doesn't "look as good," but in all honesty, you have a better chance at seeing what you need to see on a ball hit towards the left field line.

Obviously, ASA does not like the latter option, nor would I recommend it for anything other than rec league games. It's a simple matter of survival.

A ball hit to right field, on the other hand, doesn't pose quite the same problem. You're better off buttonhooking in and getting the 4 elements in front of you. Now where have I heard that one before? :rolleyes:

These days, hauling a$$ takes two trips. :o

But I still do better than many guys who just plant themselves in "B", make a call on a runner sliding into second base from there, and then ask me if I saw anything different. Well, if'n I was working a one-man game, I might have been closer than he was when he made the call.

And ironically, my understanding of why they're having us start in B was that guys were having troubles getting there from the line. So great, now that they're there, they're still having troubles moving. Granted, they have to move less, but they're still having troubles.

NO moving and having trouble moving are two different things. Your staring position is never your calling position in 2 umpires system. If you are a lazy umpire this is not true, no matter where you start.

The reason for the move was because this was the position SP umpires spent most of the game anyhow, coming off the line puts the umpire in tight spot negotiating F3 and the BR.

Starting in the B allows the BU to observe the same events in a more efficient and less stressful manner. That means s/he has the opportunity to see more.

I find that most people who have a problem getting inside are waiting too long to start.

Don't you know it's impolite to stare... hot moms notwithstanding. :cool:

The count's gone up...
http://sabian.whispers.org/indicator3.jpg

How do you account for double-digit hot moms?? I haven't been fortunate enough to work a game that hit double digits, but I suppose the possibility does exist.

New and improved model. Has an inner gear that turns the second dial.
http://sabian.whispers.org/indicator4.jpg

....widening your angle to get the catch/tag-up in your view.
And then work on your angle as you're moving to 2B. If you get yourself at a good angle to the throw from the OF you get a real good look at the tag play at 2B.
While I'm not "up" on what ASA likes or dislikes in this regard and agree with Dave that "it's a simple matter of survival"....IMHO it's still a damm effective way to cover that particular play and personally have been doing it that way for a good many years probably 90% of the time that play occurs.

The problem is simple geometry. You've got an infield that plays so far back, you're almost in the outfield, even if you "split the difference." In order to be able to see the catch in the outfield and not get whiplash when checking the runner on 1B, it's just easier to stay outside when the left fielder is going for a catch near the line or in foul territory. If you go inside, now you've got to turn more than 180 degrees to pick up the runner.

Maybe it's just a bad habit of mine, but I don't like turning my back to the outfield when I'm inside. That's how umpires get pegged.

I don't seem to have this problem. I take off on the ping of the bat (Oh how I long for the days that the sound was a "crack").

If it is a line drive, yeah, I'll peek, but before every play, I scan the OF and know where the players are and what type of effort will be required on ever ball hit. I also know where the possible plays will be and avoid any potential throwing lanes.

This may come as a shock to some :rolleyes:, but ASA (nor anyone else of which I am aware) does not dictate a given path an umpire must take. And there is an allowance to change up your position should the defense play deep. As much as I like to stay a few feet off F4's shouder, I move around a lot to accommodate the fielder and my relative position to the possible plays.