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-   -   How would you rule this obstruction call? (https://forum.officiating.com/softball/54100-how-would-you-rule-obstruction-call.html)

steveshane67 Sun Jul 26, 2009 01:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 616915)
The OBS rule states that the runner is awarded the base they would have reached (again, in the judgment of the umpire) had the OBS not occurred. In your scenario, the runner was healthy before the OBS, and the OBS caused the injury to runner. If, in my judgment, the BR would have reached 3B if OBS had not occurred, then the award is 3B, regardless of the fact that the BR stopped at 2B.

The proper thing to do would be to call time, announce the award and ask the runner if he can make it to 3B. If the runner is injured enough that he can't get to 3B, then the coach may put a substitute runner in for him, and that substitute may continue running to 3B as per ASA 4-6-D. Do not simply put that substitute on 3B, but put him on 2B instead to have him run to the awarded 3B.

If we're dealing with kids, on the other hand, don't ask the kid if s/he can run to 3B. Ask the coach to check on him/her, and let the coach make the decision.
forgot to add in my last post that the LF only had a play at 2nd bc of the OBS. If there was no OBS, the LF would have throw the ball to the SS who would have been standing by 3B (bc it would have been a standup double), thus the LF would have never made the errant throw. Does any of this "hypothetical would haves" matter in the "awarding" of bases?

NCASAUmp Sun Jul 26, 2009 01:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveshane67 (Post 616923)
forgot to add in my last post that the LF only had a play at 2nd bc of the OBS. If there was no OBS, the LF would have throw the ball to the SS who would have been standing by 3B (bc it would have been a standup double), thus the LF would have never made the errant throw. Does any of this "hypothetical would haves" matter in the "awarding" of bases?
By rule, the umpire decides on the award at the time of the OBS. We can play a million "what if" scenarios, but in the end, it is up to the umpire to decide where s/he believes the runner or batter-runner would have ended up had the OBS never occurred.

IRISHMAFIA Sun Jul 26, 2009 02:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 616924)
We can play a million "what if" scenarios, but in the end, it is up to the umpire to decide where s/he believes the runner or batter-runner would have ended up had the OBS never occurred.
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steveshane67 Sun Jul 26, 2009 05:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 616924)
By rule, the umpire decides on the award at the time of the OBS. We can play a million "what if" scenarios, but in the end, it is up to the umpire to decide where s/he believes the runner or batter-runner would have ended up had the OBS never occurred.
Just to be clear, Im not asking to play gotcha, Im asking bc I dont know the correct answer and want to know what others ppls opinion are.

So by that logic, if the OBS led to the defense making a throw that would not have been made if there wasnt OBS, any "extraneous" activity would factor into deciding what base to "award". Is that correct?

MountieSB Sun Jul 26, 2009 05:56pm
Who's a coach?
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by NCASAUmp (Post 616910)
But coach, the award from an obstruction call IS a judgment call. Of course he's going to be firm, because regardless of how you might feel about it, it's his judgment that determines the call. Just like the strike zone, safe/out, etc., an obstruction award is his judgment. He's not rationalizing anything. Why does there need to be a conversation on his judgment, coach?

The only sticking point I have is that he says he had her protected to 3B, so I'm curious to know why he didn't award 3B. If he had her protected to 2B instead, then yes, she would have been out for attempting to advance beyond the base to which she was protected. Yet if he had her protected to 3B, then she should have been awarded 3B.
I'm not a coach. I am an umpire. In my opinion, the reasoning for his judgement is wrong. It's an integrity issue. If he would have believed what he was saying, he would have rewarded her 3B. He couldn't figure out why he was doing what he was doing. I only wished we could have talked about it, because his reasoning was WRONG. I don't want to be wrong. He made us look bad, and I'm not comfortable with that. For him to say it was his judgement, then he has to have a rule-bound reason for the judgement. If he would have said to me, "She would have reached third base safely due to the obstruction" I would have said fine. In my opinion, which is why I'm writing on here, he blew the call. I didn't make this known to anyone but him at the time. I just want to get it right. I think we HAVE to have conversations if we want to be better as umpires. If you're not having conversations, you're not working very hard. Coaches and parents aren't the only ones who question umpire calls.

Dakota Sun Jul 26, 2009 06:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountieSB (Post 616961)
... In my opinion, the reasoning for his judgment is wrong.
Mine, too.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountieSB (Post 616961)
... It's an integrity issue. ...
I disagree; I see it is a simple case of an umpire making a mistake. It would only be an integrity issue if he KNEW the rules did not allow him to send the runner back to 2B and he did it anyway.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountieSB (Post 616961)
I am an umpire. ... I didn't make this known to anyone but him at the time. I just want to get it right. I think we HAVE to have conversations if we want to be better as umpires. If you're not having conversations, you're not working very hard.
Were you his partner during this game? If so, did you discuss this with him during the game? If so, did he ask for your input? If the answers are yes, yes, and no, then you were wrong, too.

IRISHMAFIA Sun Jul 26, 2009 07:05pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by steveshane67 (Post 616955)

So by that logic, if the OBS led to the defense making a throw that would not have been made if there wasnt OBS, any "extraneous" activity would factor into deciding what base to "award". Is that correct?
Scott, how many times do you think you will have to say "this determination must be made at the time of the OBS" before it gets across?

NCASAUmp Sun Jul 26, 2009 08:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MountieSB (Post 616961)
I'm not a coach. I am an umpire. In my opinion, the reasoning for his judgement is wrong. It's an integrity issue. If he would have believed what he was saying, he would have rewarded her 3B. He couldn't figure out why he was doing what he was doing. I only wished we could have talked about it, because his reasoning was WRONG. I don't want to be wrong. He made us look bad, and I'm not comfortable with that. For him to say it was his judgement, then he has to have a rule-bound reason for the judgement. If he would have said to me, "She would have reached third base safely due to the obstruction" I would have said fine. In my opinion, which is why I'm writing on here, he blew the call. I didn't make this known to anyone but him at the time. I just want to get it right. I think we HAVE to have conversations if we want to be better as umpires. If you're not having conversations, you're not working very hard. Coaches and parents aren't the only ones who question umpire calls.
Ahh... Fair enough, blue. Certainly meant no offense. :)

We've been getting a lot of players/coaches on here. Nothing meant by it.

It definitely sounds like your partner was conflicted in his story. If he had her protected to 3B, award (not reward) her 3B. If she's only protected to 2B, then she was out for attempting to advance beyond the awarded base at her own risk and getting tagged. Simple.

NCASAUmp Sun Jul 26, 2009 08:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 616932)
Tell me about it.

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Skahtboi Sun Jul 26, 2009 11:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA (Post 616967)
Scott, how many times do you think you will have to say "this determination must be made at the time of the OBS" before it gets across?
I am not even going to guess at that, nor am I going to bother repeating myself again. :rolleyes:


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