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vcblue Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:38pm

Umpire rule knowledge is down this year
 
I have noticed that So-cal ASA umpire rule knowledge has been on a steady decline over the past few years. IMHO this is a direct result of the open book test. In So-cal we receive the test at the mechanics clinic and then have two weeks to complete the test. It is open book and I know some umpires that get together as a group to complete the test.

ASA needs to go back to a closed book test and force the umpires to get in to the book to correct their mistakes. I know So-Cal ASA went to open book to have more umpire qualified for Championship play, but are they really qualified?

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 23, 2009 07:03am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcblue (Post 616340)
I have noticed that So-cal ASA umpire rule knowledge has been on a steady decline over the past few years. IMHO this is a direct result of the open book test. In So-cal we receive the test at the mechanics clinic and then have two weeks to complete the test. It is open book and I know some umpires that get together as a group to complete the test.

ASA needs to go back to a closed book test and force the umpires to get in to the book to correct their mistakes. I know So-Cal ASA went to open book to have more umpire qualified for Championship play, but are they really qualified?

The idea of the open book test IS to get umpires into the rule book. Have a closed book test and someone just gets by, what do you think the chances of them opening the rule book are?

However, if they cannot pass an open book test, what good is going back to make the corrections? There needs to be a mini-clinic at this point, but often the problem is by that time, everyone is already on the field. In my area, it is nearly impossible to get people just to show up as association meetings.

Then there are the organizations that do not have meetings. The umpires are handed their test with a "see you in the fall" farewell.

Of course, if they ever get the damn thing on-line, we will all be better off.

DeputyUICHousto Thu Jul 23, 2009 07:23am

No kidding!
 
When we give our clinics we have had umpires show up with the test already completed! I have no idea where they are getting it but they do. My personal opinion about the declining rules knowlege is that the new umpires don't care to learn. They want their game fees and then to head to the house.

Umpteenth Thu Jul 23, 2009 08:38am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto (Post 616375)
When we give our clinics we have had umpires show up with the test already completed! I have no idea where they are getting it but they do. My personal opinion about the declining rules knowlege is that the new umpires don't care to learn. They want their game fees and then to head to the house.

Well, this is my rookie year, and I was thankful for the open book test. However, beyond that, I am re-reading the rule book at least once a week, and anytime there was something that came up during a game that I feel I need clarification.

To me, umpiring is a job, and I take this job just as seriously as my full-time job. In my opinion, umpiring is a reflection of my integrity. I can't put a price tag on my integrity. And it really bothers me to screw up a call. So I do everything I can to ensure I get it right. That has led to many learning situations this year, and I've been thankful for every one of those (except for the lack of sleep following a couple of incidents). But, I learned from those, too.

Now, after 4 months, I don't feel like a rookie any more (they still tell me I am, and I believe it), but my comfort level has grown tremendously. I think we each have a responsibility to continuously improve. If not, then there's no point to being on the field. But this is such an awesome job - you're a spectator and part of the game. How cool is that!?

NCASAUmp Thu Jul 23, 2009 08:55am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto (Post 616375)
When we give our clinics we have had umpires show up with the test already completed! I have no idea where they are getting it but they do. My personal opinion about the declining rules knowlege is that the new umpires don't care to learn. They want their game fees and then to head to the house.

That's fine by me. More tourneys will come my way! :D

Actually, in all seriousness, I agree, and it's not really "fine by me." These are my partners on the field, and while I try to be helpful on this board, it does me no good to have a partner that I constantly have to bail out.

I think it's more of this "right of entitlement" crap that's permeating our society. Pride in our work is diminishing, and those who do take the time to do a "good job" are seen as either corporate tight-a$$es or kiss-a$$es - almost as if they didn't get "the memo" that says, "it's uncool to do a good job."

Umpiring is no different. You have some guys who want to do the job right, and you have others who are in it solely for the paycheck and couldn't care less about doing their jobs correctly. They're completely in "survival mode" on the field, leaving those of us who care to do our jobs correctly to mop up the mess they create.

This is not to say that all paycheck umpires are evil. It is still a job, and some paycheck umps are still willing to put forth the good effort to get it done right. The only difference being that they probably couldn't care less about the game as a whole. "It's a sport, this is my game, I'm going to do it right, but it's not my life."

I'm fine with that.

vcblue Thu Jul 23, 2009 09:42am

My biggest problem this year has been working with umpires at the 16A and 18A/Gold level that don't understand higher level rules. That type of rules when you are new you go, "Wow, I didn't know that" or rules that you don't typically see (if you only do ASA) until Championship play such as substitutions and DP/Flex.

I am on this rant because of what happen to me earlier this season at an 18A qualifier, and was triggered by a post on a different board (Irish will recognize). Runners on first and second ball hit to F6 runner on second runs right in to F6. Partner (BU) kills the play. Calls R1 out and then proceeds to call R2 out. OC comes out and asked doesn't there need to be intent. BU said no. OC asked him to get some help from me BU said no (I was bitting my lip and keeping the other OC coach away). Surprised me that OC did not protest, but they had already qualified and were just finishing out the tournament. After the game I asked my partner if he felt the runner intentionally ran into F6 to break up the double play. He said no, I said then you got it wrong. He told me no, and for me to get in to the book. I just smiled and said, well one of us should.:cool: I think I saw the UIC discussing the play with him after the game, but I am not sure because I was on my way to work the bases for the next game.


This is a second job for me, and except for 2 to 3 months out of the year I earn enough to put gas in my car and food on the table. However, just like my 8 to 5 I take pride in my work and want to succeed, and I drives me nuts every year that I work with someone that is umpiring upper level ball because of longevity and not performance.

I know we all have bad games. I know I do, but it is not because of rule knowledge. It is because I can't hold a consistent strike zone or I am not in the best position to make a call, etc.


"Pride compels you to do your best at all times. It pushes you to accomplish more than others expect of you - to accomplish what you expect of yourself.

Taking pride in your work means taking pride in yourself

wadeintothem Thu Jul 23, 2009 09:51am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcblue (Post 616397)
My biggest problem this year has been working with umpires at the 16A and 18A/Gold level that don't understand higher level rules. That type of rules when you are new you go, "Wow, I didn't know that" or rules that you don't typically see (if you only do ASA) until Championship play such as substitutions and DP/Flex.

The DP / Flex rule is the same regardless of level in ASA and I find it a little odd you only see it in championship play.

SRW Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:13am

Up here in airport code SEA, we give the test twice - once to only first and second year umpires, and again to the veterans. Both are open book, open note, open neighbor. If you're able to talk to partners on the field, why not on the test? Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here. We are testing how well they know the rules, and how well they can refer to the book and find it.

And yes, even with this method, we managed to have a few people fail the test (less than 70%). When that happens, they know which questions they missed, so we make them go back and write every rule reference to every question (even the ones they got right) and turn it back in for grading.

3SPORT Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:14am

Quote:

Originally Posted by wadeintothem (Post 616401)
The DP / Flex rule is the same regardless of level in ASA and I find it a little odd you only see it in championship play.

Possibly he is talking about that someone actually utilizes the DP/Flex rule. Most coaches do not know how to effectively use it, so they just put in a DP/Flex and use it as a way to get in more players, instead of a strategic part of the game.

IRISHMAFIA Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto (Post 616375)
When we give our clinics we have had umpires show up with the test already completed! I have no idea where they are getting it but they do. My personal opinion about the declining rules knowlege is that the new umpires don't care to learn. They want their game fees and then to head to the house.

Copies of the test are on-line in January. I encourage umpires to download it or print it and get a head start on everyone else.

They have been talking for at least three years of a program which would allow an umpire to take the test on-line, submit it and ASA would have the relatively auto-graded test forwarded to the UIC or someone at the local level. The ease and the $$$ saved on printing, shipping and correcting errors would be worth the money involved in it's development. I have no doubt such a testing program is already developed and would just require some massaging.

wadeintothem Thu Jul 23, 2009 12:38pm

Our ASA test was available online this year with immediate grading and the program was very successful with more umpires submitting their tests that ever before and a better ability to manage and review them. It worked great. The results were submitted via email to the UIC and the Local UIC of the umpire taking the exam.

One thing that did shock me was the # of long time umpires that did poorly. I bet next year they study up.

So cal, nevada, Cen Cal, and SF have looked at the system and may be implementing it.

steveshane67 Thu Jul 23, 2009 08:46pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by SRW (Post 616414)
Up here in airport code SEA, we give the test twice - once to only first and second year umpires, and again to the veterans. Both are open book, open note, open neighbor. If you're able to talk to partners on the field, why not on the test? Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here. We are testing how well they know the rules, and how well they can refer to the book and find it.

And yes, even with this method, we managed to have a few people fail the test (less than 70%). When that happens, they know which questions they missed, so we make them go back and write every rule reference to every question (even the ones they got right) and turn it back in for grading.

So many things wrong with that philosophy.

A test is a way to evaluate an individuals knowledge of the subject matter. An open book, open neighbor.... test would be fine if being able to look at a rule book or phone a knowledgeable ump during the game were permissible.

So what happens if 5 umpires meet to take the test, and 4 dont know the answer to a few questions but the 5th does, he says the answer is ....... so the other 4 umps just right down ........Now 2 of the 4 that didnt know the answer are umping a game, the same situation occurs, only this time the 5th ump who knows the rule isnt there to instruct them.

"Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here" might be the biggest pet peeve of mine whether talking about umpire or schooling or whatever. Dont use the excuse, "im not a good test taker" either you know the subject matter, or you dont. Its not like theyre asking you to take the test while you are fighting off raging lions. Im assuming one would be given a quite test taking environment where there are minimal distractions.

bkbjones Fri Jul 24, 2009 12:17am

Quote:

Originally Posted by steveshane67 (Post 616503)
So many things wrong with that philosophy.

A test is a way to evaluate an individuals knowledge of the subject matter. An open book, open neighbor.... test would be fine if being able to look at a rule book or phone a knowledgeable ump during the game were permissible.

So what happens if 5 umpires meet to take the test, and 4 dont know the answer to a few questions but the 5th does, he says the answer is ....... so the other 4 umps just right down ........Now 2 of the 4 that didnt know the answer are umping a game, the same situation occurs, only this time the 5th ump who knows the rule isnt there to instruct them.

"Testing how someone takes a test isn't the goal here" might be the biggest pet peeve of mine whether talking about umpire or schooling or whatever. Dont use the excuse, "im not a good test taker" either you know the subject matter, or you dont. Its not like theyre asking you to take the test while you are fighting off raging lions. Im assuming one would be given a quite test taking environment where there are minimal distractions.

Steve, I have not met you or worked with you. But I have worked with some who are of your same mindset.

You see, when you are on the field you should be working as a team. Same with the way we do the test. Sure, sometimes they eff it up, same as we sometimes do on the field. You know what happens when they eff it up? They all miss it, and then they all talk about it, how they missed it, etc. But they work together to do it.

We have a lot of umpires who think they are on an island. Guess what? You're not -- unless you are working one-umpire mechanics. The concept of teamwork is a good one, whether it is taking the test or umpiring a game.

Oh...it's not just the five umpires meeting to take the test. We have dozens meeting to take the test on veterans test night. If someone(s) can't find the answer, and they ask, we will guide them in the right direction, but it is still up to them to find the right answer...or to find the wrong answer and be gently led to the right answer later on.

As for taking the test, you need to get out from under the rock and realize that people have different learning styles, and perform differently when taking a test. Your last paragraph reminds me of the teachers my youngest daughter had during her first nine years of school. They had her pigeonholed in so many ways. Today, just three weeks after her 25th birthday, she called us to let us know her bonus for 2Q 2009 was $9,000. Sometimes learning the subject matter requires a different method. All we are doing by proscribing other learning methods is excluding those who could be umpiring with us...and could be good or even great umpires.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 24, 2009 07:06am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkbjones (Post 616537)
Steve, I have not met you or worked with you. But I have worked with some who are of your same mindset.

You see, when you are on the field you should be working as a team. Same with the way we do the test. Sure, sometimes they eff it up, same as we sometimes do on the field. You know what happens when they eff it up? They all miss it, and then they all talk about it, how they missed it, etc. But they work together to do it.

We have a lot of umpires who think they are on an island. Guess what? You're not -- unless you are working one-umpire mechanics. The concept of teamwork is a good one, whether it is taking the test or umpiring a game.

Oh...it's not just the five umpires meeting to take the test. We have dozens meeting to take the test on veterans test night. If someone(s) can't find the answer, and they ask, we will guide them in the right direction, but it is still up to them to find the right answer...or to find the wrong answer and be gently led to the right answer later on.

As for taking the test, you need to get out from under the rock and realize that people have different learning styles, and perform differently when taking a test. Your last paragraph reminds me of the teachers my youngest daughter had during her first nine years of school. They had her pigeonholed in so many ways. Today, just three weeks after her 25th birthday, she called us to let us know her bonus for 2Q 2009 was $9,000. Sometimes learning the subject matter requires a different method. All we are doing by proscribing other learning methods is excluding those who could be umpiring with us...and could be good or even great umpires.



Oh yeah?!?! Well, I bet you they don't do it that way in baseba.............and, and, and......er......they get more money, too!

:eek::mad::p:rolleyes:;):D:cool:

NCASAUmp Fri Jul 24, 2009 09:16am

Quote:

Originally Posted by bkbjones (Post 616537)
Steve, I have not met you or worked with you. But I have worked with some who are of your same mindset.

You see, when you are on the field you should be working as a team. Same with the way we do the test. Sure, sometimes they eff it up, same as we sometimes do on the field. You know what happens when they eff it up? They all miss it, and then they all talk about it, how they missed it, etc. But they work together to do it.

We have a lot of umpires who think they are on an island. Guess what? You're not -- unless you are working one-umpire mechanics. The concept of teamwork is a good one, whether it is taking the test or umpiring a game.

Oh...it's not just the five umpires meeting to take the test. We have dozens meeting to take the test on veterans test night. If someone(s) can't find the answer, and they ask, we will guide them in the right direction, but it is still up to them to find the right answer...or to find the wrong answer and be gently led to the right answer later on.

As for taking the test, you need to get out from under the rock and realize that people have different learning styles, and perform differently when taking a test. Your last paragraph reminds me of the teachers my youngest daughter had during her first nine years of school. They had her pigeonholed in so many ways. Today, just three weeks after her 25th birthday, she called us to let us know her bonus for 2Q 2009 was $9,000. Sometimes learning the subject matter requires a different method. All we are doing by proscribing other learning methods is excluding those who could be umpiring with us...and could be good or even great umpires.

Well said, John. Well said.

Is your daughter buying you lunch, by the way? I think she owes her good pops some lunch... ;)

Skahtboi Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:09am

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeputyUICHousto (Post 616375)
They want their game fees and then to head to the house.

I believe that in this statement the head of the nail has been located and sufficiently hit.

vcblue Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:13am

Sorry guys but Steve is right. I know we are a team on the field and that we support each other and discuss the play after the game to improve ourself and our partners. I just believe we should have a thorough knowledge of the rule when we walk onto the field, and the current method (IMHO) does not provide new umpires the same benefits that were provided to me when I started umpiring ASA. I already had 9 years of umpiring experience before I took a nine year break. when I came back 9 years ago ASA was/is the rule set all local Rec leagues were/are using. The first two years the test was closed book. I missed 20 questions. Then I had to take my test find the right answers and quote the rule. This is what got me in the book. Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

Time to go bake to closed book test.

ASA/NYSSOBLUE Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:15am

I am very proud to say that in our high school group, the scores on our NYS test - which is closed book, and done as a group, are almost all 80% and above, with a vast majority getting 90 and up. Our group clinicians do a VERY good job of doing the pre test 'review'. I would put our little (about 65 members)high school group against ANY group of officials as far as rule knowledge and mechanics ae concerned.

Skahtboi Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:23am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcblue (Post 616603)
Sorry guys but Steve is right. I know we are a team on the field and that we support each other and discuss the play after the game to improve ourself and our partners. I just believe we should have a thorough knowledge of the rule when we walk onto the field, and the current method (IMHO) does not provide new umpires the same benefits that were provided to me when I started umpiring ASA. I already had 9 years of umpiring experience before I took a nine year break. when I came back 9 years ago ASA was/is the rule set all local Rec leagues were/are using. The first two years the test was closed book. I missed 20 questions. Then I had to take my test find the right answers and quote the rule. This is what got me in the book. Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

Time to go bake to closed book test.

Sorry Ron, but I will have take exception to this as well. I have held one of those meetings where everyone gets together to discuss the test for years, and one of my requirements when I send out the email is to bring a completed test with you when you attend. The point is for several of us to get together to discuss, argue and dissect the rules/questions that cause the most problems. Ergo, we all walk away from this meeting with a better understanding of the rules, and hopefully as better umpires. Just like any other tool, open book testing and meetings to discuss the tests can be abused, but when used properly help many of us learn and grow. Largely, this falls first to the individual, to have the integrity to want to grow as an umpire, and next to the administrator of the test or the chair of the meeting. There will always be cheats, and whether you allow open book testing or not is not going to get rid of them.

AtlUmpSteve Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:24am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcblue (Post 616603)
Sorry guys but Steve is right.

Sorry, vcblue, but you are wrong. There is no one right answer that fits all.

You may have an opinion which you think is better, but neither is right or wrong. That's why there's vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, and swirl.

wadeintothem Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:33am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcblue (Post 616603)
Sorry guys but Steve is right. I know we are a team on the field and that we support each other and discuss the play after the game to improve ourself and our partners. I just believe we should have a thorough knowledge of the rule when we walk onto the field, and the current method (IMHO) does not provide new umpires the same benefits that were provided to me when I started umpiring ASA. I already had 9 years of umpiring experience before I took a nine year break. when I came back 9 years ago ASA was/is the rule set all local Rec leagues were/are using. The first two years the test was closed book. I missed 20 questions. Then I had to take my test find the right answers and quote the rule. This is what got me in the book. Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

Time to go bake to closed book test.

I disagree with you and he.

Now I wouldnt say I am MTR/AltUmpSteve level of rules knowledge, but I'd pit my rules knowledge up against anyone and at least hold my own.. and I've always taken a open book test.

The test can be used as a tool of learning. I have no problem with the associations that choose that approach as opposed to a "dmv driving" type test. It can be a fine learning tool as can group discussions about the exam, this message board, and other mechanisms other than a standardized closed book exam.

Learning rules is on the umpire... Test or no test.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:57am

Quote:

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve (Post 616608)
Sorry, vcblue, but you are wrong. There is no one right answer that fits all.

You may have an opinion which you think is better, but neither is right or wrong. That's why there's vanilla, chocolate, strawberry, and swirl.

WHAT!?!? No Butter Pecan, especially in your neck of the woods!

Obviously, ASA supports an open-book test or they wouldn't release the test to the general public.

The idea is to get the umpire to learn the rules, not to develop a method of exclusion to keep people off the field though there are people you do want to keep off certain fields and that is something which is administered locally based upon the results of the test.

Knowing the rules is not the be all to end all of umpiring. It is just as important to know how and when to apply the rules and to be in position to make the correct call.

Chess Ref Fri Jul 24, 2009 02:29pm

What Wade said.

Open or closed ,it seems to me that those who want to know the rules will, those who could care less won't.

IRISHMAFIA Fri Jul 24, 2009 02:34pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chess Ref (Post 616661)
What Wade said.

Open or closed ,it seems to me that those who want to know the rules will, those who could care less won't.

Well, if they "won't", how could they care less? :rolleyes::D

Dakota Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:50am

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcblue (Post 616603)
....Fast forward to this year... 30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given...

Sounds like a local problem to me.

Ref Ump Welsch Mon Jul 27, 2009 01:13pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by vcblue (Post 616603)
30 Umpires meet a Denny's. 15 were new and most of them wrote in the answers as they were given.

And those answers came out of the menu? :D


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