Australia vs. USA
 

What an absolutely horrible call, or lack of one, at the plate.

Of course, the THs are just as stupid as to not understand the obstruction.

From ISF Rules:

Sec. 65. OBSTRUCTION.

Obstruction is the act of:
a. A defensive player or team member that hinders or prevents a batter from striking or hitting a pitched ball.

b. A fielder who impedes the progress of a runner or batter-runner who is legally running bases while:

1. not in possession of the ball, or
2. not in the act of fielding a batted ball, or

3. Making a fake tag without the ball, or
4. In possession of the ball and who pushes a runner off a base, or
5. In possession of the ball, but not in the act of making a play on the runner which intentionally impedes

the progress of that runner, while he is legally running the bases.

Wow! Ya think the Australian coach is a little pissed?

If they are going to continue this tournament, umpire assignment methods must change. You need to not use umpires from the participating countries. Again, just the simple appearance of anything not kosher is unacceptable whether perceived (which is what I believe would be in any case) or not.

Of course, the THs said he checked with the umpire on 3rd and if he did, he was pretty slick about it because I didn't see it and neither did the Aus. coach. Then again, you are not going to check on a called swing.

Thanks for the ISF Rule. No doubt that was obstruction.

How about the, "yes she did" without checking with his partner. That is a quick call mechanic. You don't wait until after the catcher is pointing and asking. Once she does stop and go to your partner. Got to love what the Aus coach said about the PU playing to the camera. Maybe this was a make up call :eek:

He actually was doing a decent job until the OBS call and the check swing.

Even if you didnt call obs on the initial appearance and action of the play, when the ball rolled away after the catcher shouldered the runner away from the bag, simple, throw the arm.

It was a nobrainer obs call.

USA coach was also critical of the runner for not going inside. And, of course, Michelle Smith picked up on this even after the replay showed the catcher occupied the front corner of the plate and only "fell" back into the runner after missing the ball.

I wasn't overly impressed with the umpire just sitting there, hands on knees waiting for somebody to do something.

This was the only play I happened to catch tonight, and the first words out of my mouth were, "oh, he f***ed THAT one up!" It was OBS, clear as DAY. :confused::eek:

Where was the ump from? I missed the game as I was working a dh. when's the replay?

So when might ASA adopt this rule?

KC

You can probably catch the rerun at ESPN360 any time.

When someone proposes and can sell it.

5. In possession of the ball, but not in the act of making a play on the runner which intentionally impedes[/LEFT]
the progress of that runner, while he is legally running the bases.


Please give an example of a situation where this would apply. I'm having trouble seeing this.
Thanks

I have no idea what he was looking at.... or thinking on that play.... txtbook obstruction..

and yah... he kicked the strike three call..... and deserved the *** chewing he got......

Also it might be replayed on ESPN2 and they did replay some of the games on ESPNU this past weekend.

KC - Kansas City?

He made two errors. When he sees the replay, he is going to see he blew em big time. Glad I don'ts (how is that for english:D) have to process that.

As we have seen, these umps call a tighter strike zone than most of the college umps did from our vantage point --the couch. Some of these umps should have been in the tourney and not the in the ocean umps we saw time and time again. Kathy Straham out to take a good look at this and make adjustments. Just my HO. :p:cool::)

I disagree BIG time with that statement abou Kathy.



on another note... the U2 ( second base umpire) was jumpy and looked out of posistion A lot. He looked terrible as a matter of fact. The guy on the dish also looked like white hammerd dog crap and he screwed the pooch on that play at home

A couple of examples:

1 - In senior play, the runners must touch a different "scoring" plate that's 8 feet away from the normal HP. If a fielder attempts to tag and blocks the runner while holding the ball, there's nothing in the book that says this act is OBS, despite the fact that the book clearly declares that this is not an out.
2 - Another sitch is where the defensive player is holding the ball and blocks the runner's progress while making no attempt to tag them (basically an USC call, but not OBS by ASA rules).

That Mario Bro's 2nd base umpire is the same crappy PU umpire from USA vs Italy.

He is terrible and IMO, offers nothing that one could learn from except perhaps what not to do.

Thats pretty sad for such a high profile event.

Another thing was the lack of IP calls with Abbott so clearly off the plate. Kinda embarrassing when they are doing close ups and shes 3 inches back off the plate, 4 umpires, what, only a token call or two?

Of course, we can all sit back and beat up these umpires, we have the comfort of our couch, chair, bar stool, whatever and multiple angles and replays.

I am not condemning the umpires, we have all made mistakes at one time or another, just not in front of a world-wide audience. And, hopefully, they earned their way to the field while we sit home.

Another thing not in our purview is the umpire's instructions prior to the tournament or game. I would like to think that there would be no exclusions of standard rules offered, but we do not know that nor have to deal with the politics which, like it or not, are a major concern to some.

I don't think there are any comments in this thread that are out of line or wrong. A couple calls were missed, Monica Abbott is illegal and the coaches know it (Hell, there are probably groups of lama at temple in Nepal that know it) and there needs to be a better assignment process even if it means the best umpire isn't on the dish for a championship game.

The thing is, the best umpire of the tournement should be on the dish for the championship. We need to get away from the slack attitude we take to some of these rules.

The other thing is that your right it is easy to critque umpires from our couch yet the people evaluating are doing one of two things 1) letting this crap go 2) not getting threw to these people. That's if they even HAVE evaluators there or at all. After all these should be the "best" from wherever they came from

I can see your point.

My statement is based on the finals which is probably not a good idea as many of the regionals and supers were populated with elite and ISF umpires. Four of the six in the finals were elite and ISF and of these, only one IMO did not call in the ocean strikes. He went to the Men's World Championship this year. Katrina K from what I recall, was using college mechanics and in the ocean strikes in the first two innings of the KFC cup. She changed that in the third inning and did a much better job. She heard the fans and made an adjustment.

The umpires that did the college finals did not do a good job as a group. Two stood out for their ability not to call in the ocean strikes. The rest went there way too much.

He sure did and on the strike call but his strike zone was a lot better than many of the umpires I saw on TV during the college tournament. The ball had to be on the plate.

What is this white hammerd dog crap? Other than putting his hands on his knees, he used heel toe, ear on the inside corner, ISF/elite hammer, real strikes from what I saw.

I did not see any camera looks from befuddled coaches about umpires strike zone like we saw in the w college world series or pitchers laughing about generous strikes or wondering why their in the river or ocean pitch was not a strike. I'd say somebody told them that this is the real deal and most of the time your pitch has to hit the plate to get a strike (assumes low and high ok).

I thought his position was good and was actually impressed at the job he was doing until he choked when he needed to have his head in the game. I was giving him kudos .. then he flopped out when he needed to do more than call balls and strikes.

But IMO, he did a fine job for his ball strike/zone/mechanics.

Do not understand how that happens Mike. Would you mind explaining? Thanks.

What does elite/ISF have to do with anything. Isn't the subject of this thread about this elite/ISF crew's poor showing on their biggest stage? Do you expect college umpires to be better because they're elite or ISF than those that aren't? Some choose not to enter more than one political arena at a time.

They make fewer errors when all is said and done.

[QUOTE=topper;615946]Isn't the subject of this thread about this elite/ISF crew's poor showing on their biggest stage? Yes but I hijacked it for a moment.:)


Yes.

[QUOTE=ronald;615956]They make fewer errors when all is said and done.



I dont know man they are missing a lot of stuff ... more than I seem to remember the NCAA umpires missing

Then expect to be sorely disappointed.

You need to remember, the "elite" is strictly ASA and has no bearing on the ISF umpires from outside the US. For that matter, no matter how much Henry and Merle travelled around the world conducting clinics, it is still up to each country's NGB to establish and qualify their ISF umpires. And they do work other tournaments as the US doesn't have a monoply on international play, though I would like to think the US has some of the better-trained umpires.

What about college umpires who have had their paperwork lost for three years (at least), or the college umpires who are eligible for 'elite' status but do not want to spend money to be eligible for tourneys their metro will never put them in for and don't want to go to anyhow?

Elite is a nice piece of paper on the 'I love me' wall. But when it is said and done, work the mechanics and call the outs 'out', and safes 'safe'. That is what really matters.

The umpire who botched the call in this thread was Elite.

We all make errors, and yes, Elite usually makes fewer errors than the average umpire. Still happens, though. ;)

I don't think it will be long and I will feel the same. Already a quarter way there.

Agree but I have a hard time with those who fail to do what they say they are going to do. It's a fact of life and I just want to tar and feather those types of individuals.

To add on to this question - the college umpires who's ASA district won't send anyone to an ASA national. That's how it is in PA's district 4.

Steve has a good point. I know first hand how hard it is to live in that type of district, or a district where ASA is almost non existent. What about the person who moves for work every 3 to 4 years? All of these are factors in getting the right nationals to get elite, but it still does not make that person less of an umpire.

That sucks. Get rid of that guy. Why does ASA keep him?

I am in the move every 4-6 year boat.

Will probably move next year and will be no softball where I go if I go. Uncle Same decides that.

You're right. It sucks. But I don't get a vote as to keep him or not. So, I work for some other groups in the summer. I've done 2 ASA tournaments this year - one working for Big Slick and the other in Mike's neighborhood,

What about the college umpires who haven't sent any paperwork in and have no desire to work a Nationals? Are they capable of doing a good job on the college field? Or an ASA field for that matter?

As long as it's not the YSISF league...

Well, you know what, sometimes life sucks. I can appreciate Steve's circumstance as I have experienced the effect of his bane and it does suck. I don't think our opinions are very different.

If it were up to me, the UICs would run the umpire program, not the commissioners, but that isn't the case and the downside of this rears it's head in certain areas, Steve's being one of which I am aware.

However, what is there to be said for someone who attempts to diminish the accomplishments of others to "a nice piece of paper on the 'I love me' wall." for whatever reason?

Yes.

What about them? What about those who cannot work certain games, levels or classes due to family and career commitments, but can do the occasional weeknight and weekend tournaments? Are they any less an umpire than those to whom you refer?

Couldn't tell you and you don't know, either. Neither of us would without personal observation. That is unless you are insinuating that those who work college ball are better merely because they get a college schedule. I think you are smarter than that.

There are many great local/conference/league umpires that just don't fair well away from the comfortable confines of familiar fields and teams. Over the past 20+ years I have run into many an umpire with a great reputation and then I see them work and try to figure out if this guy/gal ever attended a school or clinic!

At the Richmond Round Robin quite a few years ago, we were told by umpires and players how lucky we were to be scheduled at a certain field because the umpire assigned there was a legend. One umpire told me this is exactly the type of umpire he wanted to become.

Well, wasn't impressed with his white golf shirt over long black slacks uniform (this was an ASA tournament in Henry's backyard). Maybe this was an association uniform. His vocals could not be heard by the pitcher and wasn't much more than a whisper. The strike/out signal barely got above his shoulder, safe signal was non-existent and he spent the entire game splitting and spitting sunflower seeds and the most movement from the plate (one-umpire game) was when he was sweeping away the empty shells with his feet.

So, here is this local legend that I would be embarrassed to assign a game anywhere.

Not at all.

I have made personal observations and have evaluated many prospective college officials that have chosen a different path than ASA. That was not my point however. My post was in response to ronald's expectation that elite/ISF umpires would be better college umpires than others. Believe me, I run across plenty poor collegiate officials as I'm sure you do as well. Incidentally, some of those are elite/ISF, some are not. Titles, certifications, and even NCAA post-season experience mean very little when the ball is in play.

That expectation is subject to change as I gather more info and see more umps.

I was not trying to downgrade anyone's accomplishments on or off the field. I do know that there are a lot of fine umpires who do not have the 'credentials' that are what some are looking for ie. Elite, multiple ASA nationals etc.

I too have worked with bad NCAA umpires. I have also worked with bad ASA umpires. No organization has a monopoly on good or bad umpires and to expect something from someone because of the initials behind their name is a mistake.

ratified

Absolutely no argument there, but now a question. If someone was qualified for a certain level, why not take the step?

Who knows where or what it will get you.

The reasons can be numerous. This year I got the invite to do college ball. I have my first training tournament right after Nationals.
The travel-so now I have to be prepared to travel 6 hours roundtrip. Being the new guy I've been told to expect to have that trip several times this year.
Next month I have to travel and spend the weekend in a desolated Central Valley town doing a tourney. I'm not that excited about that trip and weekend away from home.
I also have some concerns about college ball being run by the coaches. I'm not exactly sure what that means in real time but I'm not the most coach friendly guy in the world. So that may be an issue.
Also the college assignor and I have had our moments. It was over an ejection at a National he was UIC for blah,blah,blah. I stood my ground but there was consequences. I'm not in his fraternity and I'm not one of his good ole boys...he actually caught me off guard when he asked me to do college ball. I heard there was pressure on him to get a little younger, and I guess I qualify as a little younger.....

So traveling, not wanting to deal with the college caoches, and not willing to suck up are three reasons off the top of my head I can come up with.

Having said all that I am going to try it this year with an open minded attitude. If it works out great,if not back to HS and my weekends of ASA ball.

I hate to hijack a hijacked thread, and will probably wish I hadn't, but for some it comes down to this: Lower pay than weekend round robins, no travel, no hotel. Before everyone starts, it's not all about the money; it's about the mentality of some in ASA that you should be compensated less than usual to provide a service to a certain customer because it's an honor to do so. IMO, an umpire should not be any more honored to work a game than the participants are to have him/her work their game.

Personnally, I dont think the above discussed umpire is missed at nats. Thats a fair opinion to have and cya when I get back to the leagues. But please, dont torture me with your (no one in specific) sour grapes about your opinion.

Probably not. Like-mindedness is more important than substance to some.

Not sure what the cya part means. Please explain.

I agree. There is no really good reason not to take the next step. Some choose not to. It's kind of like quitting smoking:rolleyes:.

For me the reason is simple. 2-3 ASA local tourneys a year. I am loyal to ASA in that they got me my start in 'real' softball, and will continue to register and work ASA where possible. I am not the type that needs a label attatched to my name or a list to know what I can do.

Watch me on the field, and I will try my best to prove myself there.:)

Well, it sure sounds like some of it is about the money. ;)

I have never seen a traveling umpire not have a hotel room at a national. And to address Steve's issue before he jumps in, there can be issues with what the host determines to be a "traveling" umpire and, unfortunately, this is part of where the umpires run into conflict with the commissioners.

I agree that the minimum pay rate is too low, but it will never be able to compete with local tournaments as the expenses are enormously greater at the national.

This is a shortcoming of the council. Over the past six years, every time someone talks about money, the first target that falls into their sights is the umpire. National tournaments are no longer an "honor" for the host (as it is the umpire), but they are actually looking to make money. Over the past 5-6 years, they have cut many tournament games from 3-umpire to 2-umpire games TO SAVE MONEY. They have increased the allowance for the number of hosts umpires TO SAVE MONEY. However, many, if not most, national tournaments pay umpires higher than the minimum.

OTOH, I have been able to work some great games and tournaments because I chose to take the steps to get there. There is no doubt that I got the right tournaments which put me on the path, but I busted my hump to get to the level of being qualified and available for those tournaments. And, yes, I did have to pay for ONE weeklong clinic. But I have never come home with less money than I left.

Obviously, it is up to each umpire as we all have reasons for certain commitments or not. Some just do not have access to the path needed to be taken and that just isn't right. OTOH, if you just don't work certain games because you think "I'm never going anywhere", how would anyone know you would evenly remotely interested in moving up?

Oh, well, to each their own, just curious.

Cover your [behind]. (maybe)

And I think this is a great discussion.

Yeah, the hotel was an issue - but that's done.
Since an ASA gig is not an option, I'll do another group's national in Ohio next week. Chances are good that there won't be more than 2-3 games per day, and that's OK with me. Part of what I'm looking forward to is what happens in between games and when we're all done for the day. It's interesting to travel to another area and watch the umpires there and talk with them. I learn something from just about every umpire I see or work with - it ranges from "Hmmm, that's good, I've got to try that." to "OMG, I don't ever want to do anything like that."

What, half of US umps going to that tournament? Their motto is to work ya. I imagine at least 3 posters here will be at that one or the one in NC.

Ronald is right. 2 riding in my car, and at least 2 more going to Ohio that I know of, plus Steve makes 5 and who knows NCASA may come by Middle creek to hang out in the tower with me. Hint Hint

If nothing else, Dave, It will be good for a few laughs, remember I am with the 12's.:D

yeah ... 12'ss wooooo I cant wait untill we get to that field...I dont think I will get my championship plate because my zone is going to be BIG ... and by big I mean HUGE and by HUGE Imean like horton hears a who big (the relationship of normal zone = a who and horton = my zone this weekend ) ;) I tried a doc suess reference but I dont think it really worked out this time haha

You make it sound so dirty...

When's the tourney again? I'll admit I don't follow FP as closely. However, I'll gladly hoist a few beers with you fellas. :)

KCG, what about 14U's. They are both in Cary.

The tourney starts today according to Pony's website and goes to the 31st.

I wish one of the soups would change its national dates so I could go to both.

I am coming in very late on this conversation But:
ISF Mechanics are that you only ask your Partner on a 'Check Swing' if requested to by the catcher.

Now if I misconstrued the comment apologies, maybe I should keep out next time!! :cool:

Gb
 

Anyhow what about Great Britain? Not bad considering we have 5 Aussies, 2 New Zealanders, 2 South Africans, 1 Canadian, 2 Yanks, oh and 5 Brits in the Squad!! :eek: