Had to forfeit my 1st game
 

The "if necessary" game at 14 and under tourney. Home team down 2 with 2 1/2 minutes to play and at bat with 2 outs. HT coach talks to his batter coming up and tells her something, not sure. She swings at 1st pitch then coach tells her to "come on". She promptly proceeds to the dugout and enters it. HT coach starts clapping and says that's 3 outs girls take the field.

I am standing at plate doing nothing and say I need a batter at the plate. HT coach says that 3 outs she entered the dugout, I say no, I need a batter now. HT coach sends his players onto the field as I call "strike 2". He then proceeds to tell me I don't know what I'm doing and the rule says she is out. This continues, until my timer goes off, which means 2 minutes had passed.

I called "ball game" forfeit.

HT Coach says that the rules say that once the batter swings at a pitch she can enter the dugout and be called out. I told him no and that rule only applies to a runner or after the batter has completed her time at bat. He said he is home team so he can finish at bat. I told him he forfeited game by not having batter up in 2 minutes after being warned and for delaying or hastening the game.

He wasn't very happy. I'm still looking for the "one swing to dugout rule".

While we normally are told not to forfeit a game unless all other avenues have been exhausted, I fully support your decision. The coach was clearly attempting to delay the game beyond the time limit once his team had two outs on them.

Kudos to you. You did the right thing.

I don't think the coach was attempting to delay at all, in actuality he was trying to avoid a prolonged AB by his last batter which would have had time run out on him/them. If he was able to end the inning quickly, the next and presumably last inning would need to be started. Obviously the hope being that they could shut down their opponent and then come back and score the tieing or winning runs in their half of the inning.

Now let's see...how could he have done that quickly? Have the batter contact the ball somehow while stepping on HP? That would work. They needed the third out quickly. Any other bright ideas?

One other thing I'm thinking about - if this was the "if necessary" game, wouldn't that mean "championship game"? And aren't championship games played to completion, i.e. no time restriction?

Balsy call.

I would have (and maybe you did) warned him of the impending forfeit.

Two minutes is a pretty quick forfeit IMO.

That depends on the tournament. Also, that doesn't mean you ignore any rules because of the time limit.

He didn't say the game was over because it timed out, but because of a forfeit which could have been effected by 5.4.B, C, D or E.

Don't know if I would have been so quick to pull that trigger, but the umpire is certainly within the rules to forfeit the game.

Horse hockey! The coach was employing tactics to noticeably hasten or delay the game. There were two outs, time was almost gone, and he wanted to take a quick out by using a tactic that, frankly, doesn't hold any water. They go another inning, which will take another 10-20 minutes (depending on the level). So no, I don't think so, coach. What he was trying to do is not softball.

If the coach had half a brain he would have had the batter hit the ball with her foot touching HP. Would've been a LOT more subtle. :cool:

Heck, with 2 1/2 minutes left, he coulda just had her swing at three pitches! He didn't need all the stragedy (spelled correctly... ref: Bugs Bunny...)

No one ever accused coaches of being smart. If they were smarter, they'd be umpires.

Somehow, that doesn't sound right, does it?

I don't know that I would have, either, but in the calm analysis of a web board, I think it was the right thing to do. OC has already obviously attempted to delay (extend) the game, and, since his stragedy was stupid he has instead allowed the clock to expire. Under these conditions, declaring the forfeit prevents him from going back to legitimate softball to try for a 2 out rally; seems like a good call.

I dunno dakota.

Lets really do a calm analysis. All the coaches strat has done is used up the 2 minutes, so we can start off thankful. When we get done talking to a coach, we dont have to worry about giong that extra inning anyway.

2nd, just go up to him, say "coach, ASA rules state that intentionally delaying or hastening the game will result in a forfeit. I'm afraid I'm going to have to forfeit the game if you dont get me my batter."

The batter would have come up and thats it. No coach would have taken the forfeit here nor should we ever look to forfeit a game, its a last resort. And there should be a warning that its going to happen. If _______________ is not complied with.

The game is not about the umpire reading a rule then waiting to finally get to enforce it, nor is it about some idiot coach who obviously did not know this rule - its about girls playing softball. So let them play ball.

IMO, UNLESS the coach knew the forfeit was coming, this was too quick on the trigger.

I had this once. I walked up to the OC and told him if he knew I could forfeit a game if in my judgment I thought he was deliberately trying to hasten or delay the game. I told him to get his batter back out there. She came up to finish her time at bat, and I called the game. I only had about two and a half minutes left. The time it took me to explain the rule and the coach to put his batter back at the plate killed the clock. :)

I agree with your principle here, and I've used that "warning" (even though none is actually required) to put a stop to shenanigans before... it is amazingly effective. However, it this case, the OC was being a 1st class a$$.

Two minutes arguing with the umpire? Sending his team out on "defense" even AFTER being instructed by the umpire to send out a batter? Talking about showing up the umpire! Telling the umpire he doesn't know what he's doing?

I might have ejected, though, and see if the assistant coach would send out a batter...

Two minutes passed between strike one and timer going off?

Did this coach really violate the spirit of the delay and hasten rule? He had time to get three strikes. Was what he did a travesty to the game?

Yes

Yes

Without a doubt he had time to get 3 strikes or any of another of other things to "legally" get his 3rd out

Yes

I spent over 2 minutes telling him to get the batter back out, which he refused to do. I wasn't quick on the trigger, I was more than patient trying to just finish the darn game. He refused to get me a batter after more than 2 minutes of being told to do so. He gave me no recourse but to forfeit the game.

Why does the book say 2 minutes then?

I hate to say it, but in this specific case, you're wrong.

This wasn't a suspended game.

What do you think you could have done differently concerning spending two minutes talking to the coach?

True, but play was suspended, which is what the rule is talking about.

Either way, EVEN if it did apply, You wouldnt sit there with a stop watch for the 2 minutes anymore than you sit there with a stop watch for the 1 minute after an ejection. You use some common sense.

So you told him you were going to forfeit the game if he didnt get you a batter and he refused?

If so, I have no problem with it.

Or did you use it for a top secret WMD and blind side him with it?

The real beauty of this situation is that now that coach gets to go explain the the parents how and why he got their daughter's team handed a forfeit. I'll bet they were none too pleased.

Did the time expire first or did you forfeit before time expired? If time expired first, why call the game based on the forfeit rule?

Time expired first and I again told the coach to send the batter to the plate, which he didn't. He refused to continue to play so forfeit.

Coach violated rule 5 sections 4
C. Refused to continue to play
D. failed to resume play within 2 minutes after play ball declared
E. employed tactics noticeably desgined to delay or hasten the game
F. after warning by the umpire, willfully violated rules of the game

Those of you that say I pulled the trigger too quick, how long would you have waited? There was no signs of him putting the batter back, he was obviously grandstanding and trying to show me up, and just being a jacka..

He was warned of the consequences and called my bluff. No WMD, he was the one who tried to use the WMD :D

Me neither.

However, I am not sold on the forfeit yet. What happened first? forfeit or time expiring. (already asked that).

Next concern is "this continues until timer goes off". What is the details of this continues. Coach going blah, blah, blah or coach blah blah and umpire responding with what? Was this a two minute "this continues" or how much time?

After time expired, game over. You gave him one more chance after that, so yup, no choice how it played out but to forfeit it and he has to do what umpirebog said.

Two minutes is enough time I think for D. As for F, that has to be much less. Give coach time to process what you have told him and no more than 10 seconds to make a decision and specifically ask him for his decision.


My biggest question was what transpired during the 2 minutes. If you gave him your decision and moved on great. My first impression from the reading is there might have been some back and forth during the 2 minutes.
That is what I am trying to ascertain.

Thanks, Ron
Thanks

Regardless of whether the clock ran out, I agree with the decision to forfeit the game. Last thing you want is to have the coach argue that the umpire was the one wasting time. The forfeit makes it absolutely clear that the umpire wasn't the one wasting time, but rather the HC was the one wasting time and got called on it.

Declaring time expired would not end the game since home was at bat.

Good point, touche!:)

Thanks.

I don't agree with the way this was handled. This was pure and simply a coach hastens or delay the game. Tell the coach he can't do that and that if he insists you may forfeit the game. If he continues on sending out his team to D eject him for USC. Tell the AC the same thing (By this time the clock would have expired). If the AC does nothing then call over the TD and UIC (in Socal ASA only the TD can Forfeit a game) tell them what happened and let them decide. In either case the game is over (however, this should not matter to us). Most ASA Commissioners I know would not go for this crap by a coach and would most like forfeit the game.

Wait, wait, wait... What?! Only the TD can forfeit a game?! That's horsespit.

Look, in 17 years, I've only forfeited games for only one reason: not having enough players. So I'm not "quick to the trigger." But I'll be damned if someone is going to take away a perfectly legitimate tool in my toolbag.

What on earth is their rationale?

It is not unusual to have this in the tournament rules; I'd guess the most common forfeit issue in tournaments is a team being late to the field. I'd guess the TD wants a say in forfeits for this reason.

I didn't say that you pulled the trigger too quick, just that I may not have done so as quickly. We all have different ways of handling this type of joker.

I may have tossed him, told the assistant to put the batter out there and moved on from there. Or I may have asked him straight on if he was refusing to continue play or follow the umpire's direction. That makes life real easy. I wouldn't have been hung up so much on the two-minute thing, but that you did is fine and well within the rules as set forth.

As previously noted, I have no problem with what you did and you have noted the same rules as I did earlier. I think you did your job just fine.

Those of you that say I pulled the trigger too quick
 

I can't speak for the forfeit part, but your initial reaction should have been to run the coach when you ascertained why his batter went to the dugout. Don't forget there is a DC who is playing by the rules and not trying to pencil whip the other team through baseless clock management shenanigans.

Although, I must admit, after hearing you call out strike 2 with time still on the clock, I will have a few chose words for you as well (or at least a pitching change in the very near future;) There is no way I am letting the game extend beyond that half inning after seeing what the other side is attempting to do.

I'm not going to say what his reaction should have been. I will only say what it could have been. Again, I will reiterate: I have zero problem with how this was handled. The coach was given his options, and he made his choice. Yes, an ejection would've been justifiable, but in this sitch, there's more than one way to skin a cat.

I'm assuming you're speaking as the defensive coach? In that case, you'd be just as guilty as the home team coach for delaying/hastening a game.

"Don't worry, coach. I've got this one under control."

Well if you warned him that you were giong to forfeit, then its 100% on him.

Thanks, your OP wasnt clear on that.

I was really asking for other ways to have handled it, I really didn't want to forfeit the game but felt he gave me no choice. Thanks for the other ideas in case this happens again.

I'm telling you ever ASA Chapisonship I have ever worked I always hear the same thing from the UIC. We do not forfiet the game. Treat it like a protest. Stop the clock and find the UIC and Commis. The umpire must explain to both why a forfiet is the way to go. They make the decission

County-wide happy hour in Ventura tonight?

If you are working an ASA Championship game, you don't have a time limit or clock to stop.

Most UICs I know will simply walk up to the the coach and ask the same thing I suggested earlier, whether the coach is refusing to continue playing or not. Coach better come up with a pretty damn good response to be allowed to continue. :D

I'm not saying they wouldn't support the decission. I am just saying the TD wants the power. ...and yes I did stop by cornies this evening

Well, here's the problem. Once the game starts, the TD doesn't have the power to determine anything which happens on the field.

Actually, you could...
For instance, in our regional code we do have a provision for timed games, in particular in loser's bracket games.

And if you lived in Ventura County, you'd drink too. ;)

Again, if playing an ASA Championship GAME ........

Granted, he may have meant play or tournament, but I didn't have Johnny or Jack standing by to interpret.