PU Hold while BU(s) position or Both back in simulataneously
 

I am somewhat of a discussion with a few bigs as to the proceedure of moving to position after a play.

I have been taught and have always thought PU holds while the BU(s) move to positon then the PU goes to position. I call this releasing the PU.


He claims the following, which seems to me makes sense; however, thats not how I've done it
So basically, everyone is backing into position simulataneously.


I couldnt find anything in the ump manual which makes a policy on this ASA official, so what say you, how are you taught, how do you do it?

DUMB.... plate wait for base to move to posistion. then plate turns hustles back . This way eyes are on the field at all times. The reason we dont want people turn from the field is because they will miss the look back or any other potential conduct that we should see. so one watches then the other... then get to the next pitch.

who ever told you to back into posistion is lazy. If you hustle as the BU and then hustle as the PU you wont waste any time.

He is a PAC 10 confererence and ASA FP ISF/Elite.. this is no slouch joe blow umpire, which is why I am here wondering what you guys think before I take this on...

Everything I have been taught is that the plate ump holds while the base ump moves into position, make eye contact and then plate ump moves.

Or the PU can just kill the ball and everyone hustles into position and move on with the game.

Absolutely nothing wrong with PU keeping an eye on the ball/runners while moving back to the plate as BU hustles to new position. One pair of eyes should be enough, however. Can't imagine why he would recommend BU watching as well.

1. four eyes are better than two
2. multiple runners

*gasp*

Sinner!

COP OUT ... if you cant see the whole field while you HOLD and wait for your partner then get a new job this one isnt for you. What happens when you have multiple runners on and one of them leaves early in the two man system? if you can see that then you can hold and wait for your partner. I dont care who it is who told you that wade I can tell you the ISF and NCAA post season umpires ( one of which is both and worked the dish on the gold final) would quite literally crap their pants if they saw someone try to do this with them. BY THE WAY that is not a mechanic in the NCAA Softball Umpires manual so I dont know where this guy is getting that from ... SOOOOOOOOooooooOOOO in conclusion ... it doesnt matter that he is a pac 10 umpire.

I agree; I just cant hammer this guy publicly though; it gotta be handled correctly. The info he provided is bs because new people have already posted they are getting told two different things (I told them they needed to hold).

I wonder if it's written anywhere on earth or if thats just info passed along secretly generation to generation.

Rock and a hard place for you Wade...:)

I'm a holder. My question is walk quickly or jog back to plate area after the BU is in position ?

Side note. Our area went to working the rim a couple of years ago. In the umpire translater that meant " Never having to buttonhook again." Kind of the same thing, sort of.

Where have I heard this before?
 

<TABLE cellSpacing=0 cellPadding=0 border=0><TBODY><TR><TD colSpan=2>June 2007

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The question has been asked, should umpires who have rotated to cover a playing action call “TIME” to rotate back to their basic starting positions or should they move back one at a time while the plate umpire waits and watches for a Look Back Rule violation?

Many years ago the Look Back Rule was established to help speed-up the game by stopping the pitcher and the runner from “toying” with each other when the ball was being returned to the infield after it had been put in play. The rule was not established for the offense or defense to gain an advantage through “trick plays” or by “baiting” the other side into a violation. According to Rule 8, Section 7 T, the batter-runner and / or runner(s) must return to the base or advance to the next base once the ball is returned to the pitcher in the pitcher’s circle. Once the pitcher has possession of the ball in the eight-foot circle and the runner(s) have completed their base running responsibilities or all play has ceased, the play is over. Time can now be called.

On the other hand, if umpires can rotate to their next starting position without calling “time” and still maintain at least one pair of eyes on any possible action in the infield because one umpire need not rotate or move very far, they should do so when it is obvious all play has ceased.

Conversely, it is sometimes necessary for all umpires to turn their backs to the runner(s) on base at the same time in order to move after all play action has ceased and thereby keep the game moving at an acceptable pace. In this case, the umpire closest to home plate should call “time” and all umpires should then rotate simultaneously, versus one umpire watching the runner(s) while one umpire at a time moves to their next position.
Additionally, according to Rule 10, Section 4 B and E, the umpire will call “time” to brush off the plate or to perform other duties – rotations – not involved with a play. This keeps the game moving and the players are not subjected to waiting on the umpires to get back to their positions in order to resume play. This simple technique can pick-up the tempo of a game and keep it moving. (Rule 8, Section 7 T; Rule 10, Section 4 B and E; Rules Supplement 34)

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Thanks for finding that Irish, as I read this post I KNEW I had read an official "ruling / opinion" about this topic. Glad you posted it so I didn't have to go looking for it!! :D

I'm telling all of the umpires going through our training program that there are 2 modes of motion while umpiring: stopped and jogging. Sometimes jogging will have to increase to running.

I've seen too many umpires waaaallllllkkkkkk into position. It is a lazy, old man saunter - and it looks like they don't care. If I don't think they care, what must the coaches, players and fans think.

Thats actually what started the hole thing. I was working with a partner who moseyed around and I chewed his @$$ until I got him to hustle, then I went to our association MB and chewed everyones @$$ that they needed to hustle to release the PU because people were not hustling.

Then an high up umpire in our assoc posted that..

Irish posted a dead on ruling from ASA.

Its been my experience that people are still using the "post and release" version at all levels of play; but it looks like the other umpire was not too far off base.

So thanks.

Neither is having a visable Schutt emblem on your face mask. But the WCWS crew in '08 sure were sporting them. Some things in the manual are more important than others. Standing statue still while waiting on you BUs to get into position then robotically turning and sprinting back to the plate is not one of them.

I know what you're talking about- the ole stroll through the park...:)

So when I've got 3B as PU I have been walking smartly, think military walk, back to the plate. :cool:

Yer suggesting I should jog back ?

That's what I do and that's what I'm training people to do. :)

However, some people have been know to call me anal. :eek: :mad: :p

I'm SP-only, but I've always been told that if you, as the BU, aren't jogging back to B, you'll get dinged on your evals.

Same with the PU.

The difference is that the ball is dead, and runners stay where they are, so the need to watch the runners during this time isn't very high.

The priority is different, but the result is the same. Most, if not all, SP games have a 60 minute time limit, give or take a few minutes. If you are lollygagging during dead ball periods, you're wasting their playing time.

Some people take the opinion of great!, let's do that. Less work, less whining, same pay. I don't roll that way. They're paying to play. I'm getting paid to work. I shouldn't limit what their paying to do because I don't want to do what I'm getting paid to do. Maybe that's why they are calling me anal. :D

And maybe that's why you get invited to call tourneys and don't get stuck year in, year out, doing only league games. :D

I'll admit I don't haul butt at the end of every play when calling league games. When doing 3 games in a row, I HAVE to pace myself. However, I'm always in position well before the pitcher is ready to pitch, and I make sure I'm not the one holding up the game. If there's any holdup, it ain't due to any laziness on my part.

Calling in a tourney, on the other hand, is different. I'm jogging back to the plate or back to B at the end of every play. You will never see otherwise from me.

Hey, get off my corner!!!

Though taught it years ago, I do not agree with the jogging/running into position as the be all to end all.

Your time between plays may be the only time you get to take a relaxing breath. Too many people confuse running with hustle. They are not the same. I have sprinted back to my position and still had the PU waiting on me because everyone else did not have to wait for a play at 3B to finish before turning away from the play.:D

As long as the umpire is where they belong as soon as they can get there is fine by me. I want that umpire to be ready and able to cover the next play as well as s/he did the last one. I DO NOT want to call 911 because an umpire went down due to heat, exhaustion or any other reason.

If that means taking a couple relaxing steps on the way to their next position, that's okay. However, do not let me see the game stop because you did not make an effort to get into position in time.

If I'm on the plate and we're rotated out of position, I usually call time and then brush the plate off when I get "back home". I thought I was doing it only because I was uncoordinated with that little you-gottem-now-I've-gottem dance. Who knew I was following someone's recommended technique.

By the way, what was the source of this?

The ASA National Staff. It was posted two years ago on the umpire page of the ASA web site. It isn't anything new and pretty much takes a step closer to my advocation of the elimination of the LBR.

Should be mandatory reading. If you have not read em, you are slacking...:p:)

Somebody at ASA ought to get a clue and cross-reference their posted material (rules clarifications, etc.) by subject. Listing them only chronologically is pretty much useless.

Maybe you would like them to stop by at night and tuck you in? :D

You know, it is amazing what some of these search engines can do nowadays. I entered "look back rule" ASA clarification time and had the thing in front of me in less than 2 seconds.

Thanks, I've been looking for an emoticon like this one. ;)

Glad to help! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/gr...smiley-018.gif

Oh there are plenty of them...

http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/rude/1/double-finger.gif
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/funny/2/finger.gif
http://www.sherv.net/cm/emo/rude/1/animated-finger.gif
http://msnemotions.org/emoticons/War/00000051.gif
http://images.paraorkut.com/img/emot..._finger-15.gif

Okay, enough.

Can you tell it's a slow day at work?

http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sa...smiley-011.gif

one more try

well if you want to both turn your back or ...
back into your pos. while walking there good for you ... I wont see you in the post season.

Has a staff member told you that a PU can't be moving back to the plate with his/her eyes on the ball or just one of your local legends? If it was the latter, I'd do some checking for myself before I come on here and get too mouthy.

as a matter of fact they have.... so whose to mouthy ? and why get so offended? how many post seasons have you worked? my guess = 0 at least none since the SUIP is really prominant and its evaluators being tougher than some local yokal.

Right or wrong, not watching where one is going is a dangerous move by any umpire especially at the plate where players have been known to take their alleged "practice swings" while completely oblivious to the immediate environment and those occupying that space.

Again, back to just killing the ball and hustling back into position seems to be the safest and most expedient method.

But, it's a live ball game! http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/te...smiley-018.gif

I'd be surprised if it were Emily. It contradicts conversations we've had in the past.
Absolutely irrelevant. Not sure why you keep bringing the post season up. My resume' has nothing to do with the subject of this thread nor any other. Including it in a screen name or on a list of associations in a signature tells me more about the official than their ability to officiate.

If I'm close enough to the plate to be hit by a practice swing, there's no need to be moving towards it while my partners are moving.

Helluva an assumption that the batter only swings the bat in the vicinity of the plate.

Then why can't the runner's run? :confused: Could it be that is because the same amount of action is supposed to take place during this period as that when the ball is dead? Oops!

I have not heard the argument that Irish just used before, but now that he says it it makes sense, not bad for a Slow pitch guy:D

You've been around since march 05 and never heard the argument Mike's making before? :cool:

Actually you brought up staff member ... thus the SUIP thus your resume' There are times where people work improperly or contradictory to that manual and those people for the most part DO NOT work post seasons... for the most part. thats why its completely relavent. P.s. your red herring logical falicy attack on my screen name will not deflect the fact that your wrong and will continue to be wrong about this. And it wasnt emily

What is this guys? I get supervisor umpire ...

thanks.

Softball Umpire Improvement Program

Thank you.

Follow up. The SUIP, once ball in circle, wants BU to move quickly to next position then turn around, then PU moves quickly back to plate. Right?

I used to do that. Now as BU, I move past the base line, turn and back pedal to my position. 1) SUIP not good? 2) ASA - ok, not ok or depends on UIC or let's kill it:D?

Thanks.

The SUIP is the NCAA's way of getting all of their umpires working with the same mechanics and philosophy. They have a manual that we are expected to use so that when they bring officials in from all over the country to do regionals and championships everyone knows what is expected. It is written for college fastpitch softball. ASA teaches to the masses and includes many levels and games.

Umpires need to hold their positions until the ball is in the circle and the runners are on their respective bases. Several years ago they asked the plate umpire to hold until a set of eyes is on the runners. It took too long and drew attention to the umpires. Now the BU's turn and hustle to their position and the PU keeps their eyes on play (the ball is not dead) until there is a set of eyes on play (the ball is not dead - things can happen). The idea is that you don't need to stand still. When a BU gets to their next position the PU turns and hustles back to the plate. Umpires can move much like a set of basketball officials. It is faster and does not draw attention to the umpires.

Mechanics are used to make sense for the college fastpitch game. 39,000 umpires don't need to be trained, only the ones that are doing that level of softball.

Calling time as a routine takes away from the game and draws attention to the umpires.

What can happen?
-Pitcher leaves the circle.
-Pitcher drops the ball.
-Catcher walks to the circle w/o asking for time.
etc. etc.

Why take that away from the game?

Come on, give me a break!

Take what away from the game, a meaningless "gotcha" call that shouldn't occur anyway? If anything, making that call will draw more attention to the umpire then calling time and hustling into position so the teams can get back to doing what they are there to do, play the game.

BTW, who cares if the catcher walks to the circle w/o asking for time, NOTHING can happen without the umpire being put in the spotlight when s/he makes that "gotcha" call!!!

You can ramble all you want about it, there is nothing that keeping the LBR adds to the game. Remember when the WCOS championship game ended on an LBR violation? Right, wrong or indifferent, the call drew serious attention to the crew and the "violation" (as is often the case) had little to nothing to do with the progress of the game.

The LBR is an antiquated "control" tool that is more of a detractor to a game that otherwise has a very positive image.

This may or may not be true - but I think it is irrelevant to the conversaton.

It IS a rule right now. It IS expected to be enforced. It IS used by players and coaches that understand it. Would it make a lot more people happy to do away with the rule - maybe. But if so, why havn't ANY of the rule makers for any of the organizations done so?

Until the rule is done away with, we obviously have to enforce it. And keeping the ball alive and not turning our heads on the ball and players is how we have to do it.

When I see batters warming up between the plate and circle, or 20-30 feet up the 3rd base line, I'll be sure and address it. Until then, I'll assume it's relatively safe to ease back towards home for the short time it takes my partners to get moved.

It IS relevant to the conversation as the elimination of the rule WOULD make this thread and subsequent discussion obsolete.

We enforce the rules in place. I'm pretty sure I've got that one down after 43 years of umpiring.

As noted by people other than myself, this rule was not meant to be "used" by anyone other than the umpire.

Maybe for the same reason that until a couple years ago, the rules did not allow a batter to attempt to advance to 1B on an U3K with two outs and 1B unoccupied.

Maybe for the same reason that ASA rules do not address a fair batted ball which lands (hits the ground) and deflects off a fielder and leaves play in fair territory.

People are apathetic and often just accept the status quo whether it makes sense or not.

The ball is "live", not alive. But because of this rule, nothing can happen. Runners cannot leave the base, so there is no reason to throw the ball, the ball cannot be pitched or hit, so what is so "live" about the ball other than to get umpires to argue over who said what about who is watching whom first and whether "backing" into position is acceptable at any level of the game!

http://l.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/18.gif

I disagree. The discussion is how we handle returning to our positions, not how we should do it if the rules were different.

I wasn't being a SA, just commenting on why I thought it wasn't relevant.

When the rule is violated, people know and expect us to enforce it. They don't sit back and say, "That's an obsolete rule anyway, I don't want you to call my opponent out."

That's definitely true!

Brain cramp! :eek: Sometimes I type faster than I think. :mad:

I disagree that nothing can happen. I would agree that nothing 'should' happen. But, as Rachel pointed out, things do happen. Pitchers walk out of the circle. Pitchers put the ball on the ground to fix their hair without having time called. Runners step off bases. Things definitely do happen.

(and then the ensuing debate...)

You're just not a smilie kind of guy, I guess! http://smilies.vidahost.com/contrib/ed/naughty.gif

Why would I smile when you put up a picture of my mother-in-law? :eek:

I think her sister is related to my wife! :eek: :p

And a meteor could fall on the pitcher!!! Can the runner advance if she drops the ball with a 200 ton rock sitting on her head?

The runners cannot advance, so who gives a **** if they come off the base?

The rule was not meant to be a cheap out or part of a strategy. I certainly hope you are not fearful FP umpires are not able to handle the situation as SP umpires have been doing for decades.

What is its meaning? Serious question as have never heard why it is there.

Wouldn't that be a block ball? :D

They can advance, they just can't advance legally.

My fear is that SP umpires won't call outs when they get drafted to work bases on my field and the LBR is violated. :eek:

From ASA:

Many years ago the Look Back Rule was established to help speed-up the game by stopping the pitcher and the runner from “toying” with each other when the ball was being returned to the infield after it had been put in play. The rule was not established for the offense or defense to gain an advantage through “trick plays” or by “baiting” the other side into a violation.

Only if the ball was still in her hand, but that means the LBR would still be in effect. So, when R1 leaves the base to help the pitcher, make sure you call her out before dialing 9-1-1.No, because the moment they step off the base they are out, if you are doing your job and enforcing the rules which are presently in place.:rolleyes:


You better watch out for the local Constable as s/he is sure to ticket you as it is becoming more obvious that much is going over your head and probably littering the countryside.

No doubt!


Only if all of the umpires didn't turn their heads and miss the pitcher drop the ball.



Not going over my head, hitting me directly up side the head. :D

What I'm finding strange to understand is why any umpire would have a problem with a change that would not only allow the game to proceed in a smoother and more expedient manner , but also permit the umpire an extra second or two to take a breath between plays.

No problem here. I welcome that change. Until it happens, we have to deal with it the way it is.

I loathe bird dogging runners to make sure they are complying with the rules. But if I don't do it, I'm going to miss a violation of the rules and get my butt chewed for missing it.

Don't like that either.

What I get tired of is how most of the threads on this board end up being snarky back & forth exchanges with Mike. College fastpitch is not and never will be slowpitch. I used to read this board and learn, now I just get annoyed.

The pitcher walks out of the circle and the alert base runner takes off for 2nd the runner from 3rd scores on the throw. It's part of the game. Doesn't happen often but it can.

Well, Rachel, for some of us (such as me, for example), this discussion of the LBR, calling TIME and the end of playing action, etc., (and Mike's views on it), are like the old prison joke... somebody yells "joke #42" and everybody laughs... they've heard them all so many times before. You gotta have a bit of a sense of humor, or at least of not taking things so seriously, to actually enjoy needling Mike about some of this stuff. :D

Either that, or I'm just weird. http://www.clicksmilies.com/s1106/sp...smilie/mad.gif

Or, maybe both! :D

At one time, these were all parts of the game of fastpitch softball:

A bunt or attempt to bunt is not allowed at any time; batter is out.

Runner may not lose contact with the base until the ball reaches the batter.

Both feet must be on top of the pitcher's plate; One foot must be in contact with pitcher's plate until ball is actually left the pitcher hand (no drag allowed)

The pitch shall be delivered on the first forward swing of the pitching arm.

Batter's box shall be 3X5; 2' forward & 3' to the rear of the center of the plate.

No team could start or continue a game with less than 10 players; game is forfeited.

The bat shall be made of wood.

Substitute pitcher must pitch to one batter.

Batter is out immediately after three strikes are called (no 3rd strike rule).

Runner on 3B may only score on a batted ball, a play made on himself or the catcher returns the ball to anyone other than the pitcher.

The addition of the LBR is a basically recent addition to the game to control the antics of the sly coaches and players.

The game evolves and it is my belief there is a better way to handle these antics other than ruling a runner out. Can you imagine the game today if the pitcher was not allowed to drag away from the PP or the batter wasn't even allowed to attempt to bunt?

The LBR is no more "part of the game" than many of the other parts and even less so than many.

at on etime they were .... are they now?

Of course, they are not and that was my point.

Which is a valid point on the expectation that the LBR may find itself similarly in the dust bin of softball history someday. But, until then, it is a rule of the game that the umpires should be prepared to enforce. And, being prepared to enforce it includes being in position to enforce it.

Calling TIME to get back into position is easier on the umpires and, it could be argued, simpler for the players, but in addition what it does is take the LBR out of the picture during that time. Good or bad, intent of the rule or not, that is what it does. I can't find in the list of times when the umpire should suspend play "when the umpire believes the LBR is stupid." :cool:

They suspend play in SP so the fat guy in centerfield can get the ball to the pitcher without haviing to run it all the way in, so we dont have to wait 22 minutes for him to walk it in, and because they are calling time for fear of over throwing it.

LBR aint going anywhere in the FP game. :cool:

That is not the only reason. One other is the shenanigans fast runners will play with the pitcher or infielder holding the ball, each deeking, yadda yadda. Time.

Ya know, Tom, at no point did I suggest an umpire not apply the LBR when appropriate, yet some have determined they know what is in my mind better than I and have responded as if I did.

At no point did I suggest the LBR is stupid, yet some have chosen to respond as if I did.

How I initially responded was directly to the subject by stating there was an option (approved by ASA) to just kill the ball to allow umpires to return to their positions.

Unlike what some would like to believe, I do not jump up on my soapbox at the mention of the LBR. I will, however, voice my opinion when the discussion gets to that point and I will not apologize for doing so.

And for those who are still searching for a valid reason to retain the rule, the manner in which the umpire enforces the rules would not change, you just don't call the runner out.

These still are in LL softball (and baseball) for players age 12 and under:

At the upper divisions you can leave when the pitch is released, and a third strike must be caught.

Not trying to be a smart ***, but LL did not have softball at the time these rules were in place. To be honest, I don't believe you can compare LL to the rest of the softball world. Many of the rules are baseball-based (as were many of the early softball rules) and remain so at the original age levels.

And like ASA changes at the men's FP game, I believe it may be that the rules at the older levels of LL softball were possibly forced changes to stay competitive with the softball organizations with which they compete.

Just an opinion.

Mike, I'm assuming that you advocate eliminating the LBR, but retaining a rule preventing a runner from leaving before the pitch is released. Otherwise there will never be another out at 2B on a steal attempt(?)

Correct. That is a separate rule which I have not discussed. As previously noted, nothing really changes except the runner is returned to the previously touched base instead of being ruled out.

I agree with you on this. LL is different, and you're probably right about the reason for the changes at the upper levels. It wouldn't bother me to see LL take a long look at its softball rules and maybe get closer to the rest of softball. I can dream...;)

Joke #42 ... ;)

"searching for a valid reason...." No, just valid enforcement. I don't like the slow pitch rule for the fast pitch game, since the defense needs to play the game, too, including accurate throws of the ball in to the pitcher, etc.

Who said it was a SP rule. What do you think they did in the FP game before the LBR was effected?

And, FYI, in SP, the ball is live until all play is complete even in the game without stealing. After a pitch, where there is stealing, the runners can advance until the ball is returned to and possessed by the pitcher in the infield. IOW, the action in SP is the same as you asked for in FP. Wow, what a shock that must be!:eek: