Infield fly...ordinary effort?
 

Had a sitch in a game last night...a short, stocky girl was playing second base. One out, runners on 2nd and 3rd. Batter hits a pop fly (inbetween a high pop and a blooper) over the 2nd baseman. It lands maybe 6 or 7 feet into the outfield.

Now, does ordinary effort mean for any player, or for the caliber of player you have on the field? In my opinion, most people should have been able to get to that pop fly. However, this girl reacted slowly and she was slow even after she reacted.

I called infield fly because I thought it should have been caught with ordinary effort. The ball landed just outside the infield. Defensive team was pretty upset as a run scored in the ensuing confusion.

Thoughts?

Also, a question I'm pretty sure I know the answer to but want to clarify. When infield fly is called, there is no force at 2nd, 3rd and home, correct? Since the BR is out, runners have the option to stay at or return to their bases, so no force out?

Thanks. Sorry if this is too Umpiring 101. :p

You judge it based upon who you've got on the field. Ordinary effort for 10U may not be the same for 70-Over Seniors, and 500-lb Bubba's ordinary effort will differ from Derek Jeter playing shortstop. So in a nutshell, yes, it will vary.

Hey, it's your judgment as to whether or not the ball COULD be caught with ordinary effort, not the coach's. The coach can eat a bug when it comes to your judgment. If the ball is caught, runners must tag up in order to advance, and they may do so at their own risk. If the ball isn't caught, runners don't have to tag up, and they may advance at their own risk.

Where the ball lands is completely irrelevant. It's whether or not someone playing the position of infielder can get there to catch it with ordinary effort. Let's say the ball is hit, and would land 1 foot shy of the outfield. If the infielder is playing next to the grass, they only need to take a few steps back. We've got an IFF (infield fly). On the other hand, if the infielders are expecting a bunt and are playing way inside the baselines, chances are that they none of them would be able to get to that pop fly hit 1 foot shy of the outfield.

You see what I'm getting at?

That's correct. The force is now off, and runners may advance at their own risk. If the ball is caught, they need to tag up. If not caught, they may attempt to advance without tagging up.

Nah, 102. ;)

I agree with the comments made by NCASAUmp.

However, based upon the OP, the infield fly rule was not in effect as the runners were at 2nd and 3rd, with no runner at 1st.

Oh holy crap, I missed that.

What's with me lately? I should stop answering questions while programming at work...

I don't know why I always have such a hard time posting the right bases. Runners were at 1st and 2nd. Definitely was IF sitch.

Too much oat bran for the brain, giving you brain farts? :D

So I'm visualizing a conversation something like this:

DCoach: That wasn't an infield fly.
You: You sure coach?
DCoach: No way that could be caught with ordinary effort.
You: I'm pretty sure you don't mean that coach.
DCoach: No way, and my players were all confused.
You: Okay, no infield fly, Batter is safe at first. All other action stands.

If she didn't catch the ball and they didn't get the ball in in time to stop the runners, what did the DC want you to do with the non-IF?
________
WEB SHOWS

An IF does not have to land in the infield... "can be caught by an infielder with ordinary effort" is the standard.

So, positioning of the infielders does matter. I will also adjust for the level of play, but not for the individual player, and certainly not for how the individual player reacts to the ball.

If the infielder has to turn and run out to catch the ball, it MAY not be ordinary effort.

But, in the end, it is your judgment.

And, the purpose of the IFR is to protect the offense, so the defense has no standing to complain how ever you call it, although usually when the defense complains it is when the IF was NOT called (they are looking for the cheap out), so I like youngump's response... ;)

Just call the ball. If its a play where the offense needs protecting, do it. If its obvious some spectacular thing needs to happen for a play to be made and crazy stuff is going on, dont call it. You see a fielder is under it or easily moving under it, call it. Dont call the skill level, get the out.

Sure it does (in ASA) assuming it lands!:D

Why not? As Dave noted, if the fielders are playing up or charging, reversing direction and hauling *** to get the ball is most likely not ordinary effort. And if the fielder is camped, pounding his/her glove and calling the ball, there MAY be a good chance that you will rule an IF even if the ball comes down away from that player.

That is often a great indicator.

Which is the hook as to why an umpire really shouldn't approach the IF call with any preconceived notions which may or may not have a bearing on the call. But you knew that, didn't you? :D

OK, I'll play along...

True, I was thinking in terms of the OP situation, where we have Lucy playing F4...

Because ASA defines the infield as the area of fair territory normally covered by infielders.

So, for a batted ball to qualify as an IF, it would need to be in an area where an infielder can make a play on it with ordinary effort. If ordinary effort by an infielder is there, then the ball must be in the area normally covered by an infielder which means if the ball is uncaught, it will land in the infield.

You may think I'm joking, but if you have ever worked the upper level of men's SP, some of the infield configurations can put a BU so deep it s/he could easily have a normal voice conversation with the outfielder. That makes for one BIG infield, but for the purposes of the rule, that is just what it is.

Actually, it doesn't need to land in fair territory. It just needs to be a fair batted ball that can be caught with ordinary effort by any infielder (including pitcher and catcher). It can land in foul territory and roll fair if it hasn't passed 1B or 3B. ;)

Related to this, there's 10-2-A-8:

I started to type "Nobody said it had to land in fair territory" and no one did. However, reading through the points, it could be presumed that by the definition of infielders and infield, there is an implication that the ball would have to land in fair territory, which as you have pointed out is not necessarily so.

Good catch.

Which is why the ball can land in what I refer to as the "bermuda triangle," behind the pitcher's plate (for the PC police, I did not call it the rubber), going toward 2B and SS. When they are playing THOSE configurations, I only call an IFF if there is a phone booth on the field because Superman is the only guy who is gonna catch it.

'Course, half of these wannabes think they ARE Superman.

I use two criteria--and both must be met for an IF.

1) Is the fielder "camped out" under the abll AND

2) Is the fielder facing the dish? (possible exception for F2 here).

Ace in CT

I can relate to that. I've worked our men's open league here in Omaha, and there are times I have to be about 5 feet deep into outfield grass because the 1B and 2B play that deep.

So then this begs the question... Why not adjust? Split the difference and either draw a line between F3 and F4 or between F4 and F6 and stay behind that line? Just make sure you stay on the 1B side of the field.

Does no one else do this?

Strange.. to me it seems you would just position yourself in front of them.

Thats what they do in this foreign game known as baseball.

Why go hang out in the outfield? Thats not your priority.

I asked about doing this once, and our local UIC said no, as well as did our local association president. They had asked the player reps (this league has its own board) if the players were ok with this adjustment. They all said no, because they feared not only for their own safety, but the umpires' as well.

No, not at all. This year, the manual got all fouled up with all the re-writes, and the diagrams were omitted. However, last year's manual does address this very concept. Look on page 217 of the 2008 Umpire Manual, and find the "Note." It refers to a bases loaded situation, but I see no reason why this adaptation can't be applied with a sole runner on 1B, a sole runner on 2B, or runners on 1B and 2B.

This position was actually discussed at one of our state clinics (I believe it was last year) as an accepted method of getting closer to the bases, but remaining far enough back to keep from getting drilled with a line drive. I THINK it may have been mentioned at the NUS this year as well.

Ronald, do you remember them saying that, or am I getting my clinics mixed together?

Bull****! They couldn't care less about our safety.

Speaking ASA, for the purpose of interference rules, the umpire who is behind a direct line of the two nearest fielders on each side of the umpire is behind the infielder.

BTW, in the games I was doing, all the infielders were deep. If I moved up the middle behind a line running from F4 and F6, I was still a good 30-35' behind 2B.

The real ***** is that none of these moronic players just kept hitting the ball as hard as possible which gave the infielders time to field the ball and throw them out. If any of them hit a routing ground ball, they would never put him out unless it was right back to the pitcher.

I've actually had a 2B say "blue, you're a little bit close for your own safety" when I lined up on the 2B shoulder side of the 1B and almost in a direct line to where 2B was standing. I told him I'll be fine. He shrugged his shoulders. Nothing happened, but I was quizzed by our association president a couple days later because 2B or his team rep called in the next day to state their "concern" for my positioning.

I don't think they were as concerned with your safety as they were with your positioning as an umpire who is going to make a call.

Whenever I split the difference, I decide where I'm going to go based off of a number of things. Is it a righthanded or lefthanded batter? Do I see him aiming for 3B line, 1B line, or up the middle? Where are the fielders?

With no runners on (or a lone runner on 3B), I usually split the difference between F3 and F4 with a righthanded batter. Very rarely will I do this with a leftie. If I've got a leftie, I usually split the difference between F4 and F6.

It all depends on their positioning and where this split will put me as a result. If it gets me too far out of position, I'll just suck it up and park my butt behind F4, ready to haul butt when the ball's hit.

Obviously, the midwest player is a different animal than those in the Midatlantic area.:D

"Church league... softball... fistfight..." :D

Yeah, but they prayed first. :rolleyes:

Oh, well... I stand corrected! They must all be saints...

And I'm sure most of them have set foot in the church at least once, right? :rolleyes:

This line reminds me of a story my former white hat in football told me once about doing college basketball. There used to be an annual tournament of the Concordia Colleges/Universities in the midwest, in which he worked once when it came to Nebraska. He said it was quite amusing that they'd do the introductions and the prayer and all that, and then two minutes into one of the games they'd have about 3 technical fouls called and maybe someone ejected already. The other guys on our crew looked at him like he was BS'ing. That was right before we stepped on the field to work a 8-man game between a Christian school and a Catholic School. Lo and behold, they knew he wasn't BS'ing after we got done. :D

You may be mixed up:) but not on this issue. Taught at the NUS in VA. It is not too often I get to get a punch line in.

Okay, wheh. I know I'm crazy, but the question is, "how much?"

So yes, if it's taught at the NUS, I'd say it's a pretty well-accepted position.

Is everyone else familiar with it? Or is anyone unclear on it?