Mechanics question
 

I have been working the Independence Day tournament in Boulder, CO this past week...met some umpires that know some of you all...Working with an umpire from the Dallas area and this question came up. I would like opinions based on both ASA and NCAA mechanics.

2 umpire system with runners at first and second base. On a base hit to the outfield, which umpire has the play on the lead runner at third base? Is your answer an absolute or is it "situational" based on where the ball is hit, deep, shallow, etc...?

I think all field mechanics have a situational aspect; however, that call is PU's. BU has 1 and 2 and his positioning should be such to facilitate that, not an initial call at 3B

Generally, we go with the PU taking the lead runner, with the BU taking the trailing runner(s) with multiple runners on.

So, the only way I can see this happening is with a ball hit very sharply to left. On such a ball, where are you moving to as PU to see this call? You're obviously not going to get very close but what would you do to try and buy some angle?
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Sorry, but I dont agree that you wont be in good position. You should be in good to excellent position to make this call with a natural 90. The harder job on this call IMO is BU's.

It seems to me this call has two flavors -

1 where you are moving on the hit because that play is obviously happening right now and you should be in real decent on the position because you read the play is going there (or potentially there). This would be perhaps something like a liner one hopped by left field.

1 where you are still moving, but perhaps held a little by fair/foul catch/no catch, it which case the runner is held as well (or there wouldnt be a play there to worry about). (mid to deep fly)

So once you determine fairfoulcatchnocatch, you can be moving and also in good position, you should be the runner in flavor 2 because you can still come up the line or into the infield plenty.

hustle your *** off and get as good an angle as you can get.... however I have seen people deviate from that and on the sharp hit ball with a force play comming into effect letting the base umpire take it.... btw this is one of those times where I say we need three man all the time we can get it and when we cant sometimes were just Fd

PU 's call at 3rd. Wade hit the nail on the head with his reply. This is not a hard play to cover for a 2 man crew. This is basic bread and butter coverage that happens often in a game and should be covered seamlessly by 2 good umps who know what they're doing. So even the times that it play may get a little dicey (shoestring catch, trap, LF foul line, etc.) as Wade stated, get your angles, work the coverage. Pause, read, react. Don't over complicate
things.
A 3 man crew is not always the answer to good coverage of a play.

PU, and shy of a medical emergency, I cannot see any reason it shouldn't be the PU's call.

Don't care where or how hard or soft it is hit, whether a tag play or force out, an umpire shouldn't have that much of a problem as long as they hustle, but that should be something the umpire always does.:D

As has been stated it is the PU's call all the way. It is also pretty darn routine and a quite easy play to cover if you are PU.

K, so I don't have as much experience as most of you, but still, I've never seen a force play at third on a ball hit to the outfield. So we're probably visualizing something different. I've got a ball hit very sharply to F7 who's playing shallow. F5 is stretching toward left field like a first baseman toward the throw and the runner didn't have to hold up at all.

If it's the play I'm visualizing, then here's the problem. I'm pretty young and fast but there's no way that a runner coming hard from second --who left with the pitch -- can get to third at the same time as a ball to the left fielder gets to third and me -- who started moving from set after the ball was hit -- have time to get from behind home plate to any angle that's even close to perpendicular to that throw.

I can understand getting a good look at a play if something else happens, like the catch/no catch with the runner holding up, but the sharp line drive?
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spanish girl Cam

(note to self....Check Andy's mechanics this weekend.....)

Youngump, what you have to do is: work on it.

Work on your 3B positioning. Every game be working on something and add that to the list of things you need to be aware of so you can work on it. Even if there isnt a play there, move because its your call if there is. That will make it habit.

Recognize now that it is your call, so now you need to get it down.

Even 3 person potentially won't help on this play. ball hit in air to left field toward line R1 on 2nd. U3 goes out with hit, LF drops ball and R1 takes off for 3rd U1 has BR, PU has R1 going into 3rd, U3 is out till play is over. So even 3 person has the PU taking that play at 3rd base coming from the outfield on lead runner.

I do move down toward third base here, and I guess conceptually I've understood it's my call. I'm still just not sure where you'd go on this play if you want to actually see anything on it. I can't work on getting somewhere unless someone will own up and tell me where that is.
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You need to be just in foul territory at a 90 degree 10-12 feet from the base for that play

Are you seriously maintaining that you're fast enough to get to that position on the play I described with a good age group playing? In the time it takes a fast runner to cover 40-ish feet --starting moving -- you can go from set to a position 65 feet away? What should a slower guy like me do? If the runners going 40 feet, you have about 35 feet to work with for me.
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Vaporizers

While I am faster than the average umpire, it depends on the situation. Lets say that on a particular play you were not fast enough or even possible for anyone to be in the ideal position; that doesnt change the ideal position.

You asked where SHOULD you be.

A 90 10-12 is ideal "by the book", sometimes I close from there on a tag play as it develops depending on what is happening.

Remember...

Angle over distance.

You already have the angle. Close the distance the best you can.

I don't have the angle Wade suggested, but I'm thinking more angle is the best thing I can get here. On this play, I'd want to work inside toward the circle to try and get at least 120 to the throw.

What angle would you suggest for this play?
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Actually, I'd want to be as far up the 3B line as I could reasonably get and just inside the line. If this is a tag play, 90-degree angle to the tag. If this is a force play, then outside the line may be pretty good, so I've got a look at the throw being caught and the runner hitting the base.

Sure it does. If I run toward the position you are suggesting and make it about 45 feet, I will be straightlined to the throw. Unless someone explains to me something better I want angle on this throw so I'm going inside.
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You'd be straightlined to the throw though.
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WAWLADY live

If you go inside that far, you will get dinged on an eval. When they want you to think, they'll post it for you in the umpire manual. :cool:

Way too much emphasis placed on speed in this game, at least, for umpires.

Get to where you need to be at the best angle you can get. I've worked 6-man games that still didn't cover every possible angle imaginable, so don't worry about it and just do the best you can.

Hey, boss...it wasn't me that came up with this crazy idea.

My partner was the one that presented this to me saying..."that's the way we are doing it in Texas."

I just wanted to see if anyone else is doing or teaching that the BU has a call at third in the OP.

Thread over! :cool:

No need to get up in arms over being too far away on a fast-developing play. You'd be surprised how well you can see with just a good angle.

Part of the positioning is going to be based on read & react. So, While I might get straightlined, it's not likely.

From what part of Texas? I can't imagine that ever being taught in the Dallas area.