identifying runners
 

Just been reading some of the posts and was wondering where the identification of runners started/whats the reason behind the labeling system?

IMO, its overly complicated to say R# is on base X when the # does not equal base X.

for example, runners on 1st and 3rd. the current system as used would say R1 on 3rd, R2 on first. Why wouldnt it be easier to say R3 and R1 where the # corresponds to what base they are actually on?

the argument is old hat..

Softball does it that way to be different and thats the way it is in just about all prominent softball literature and training material.

so baseball does it the "easier" way, and someone sometime ago decided that softball would do it the "harder" way just to be different, and everyones followed suit since?

thats the best I can figure.. you get used to it.

Frankly, I don't see why it's so difficult. R1 is always the lead runner, R2 is behind R1, R3 is behind R2. It goes with the batting order. What's so hard about that?

Nothing. It is so simple that some think it is hard, I guess:confused:

its not that its difficult, its just a "flawed" system IMO. Like I said earlier, when you have to specify what bases R1 R2 are on its just unnecessary (obv you dont need to specify R3 bc he can only be on 1st), its almost like having to say the leadoff batter batting first.

When you can use a system like R1 always corresponds to a runner on 1st, R2 -> 2nd, R3 -> 3rd, thus when you have a situation like 1st and 3rd, currently you have to say R1 is on 3rd, R2 is on 1st, which is a whole lot more wordy than saying R3, R1.

Yep so much easier
 

Version 1

R1 on third; R2 on first; 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R2 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R1 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.

Version 2

Runners at first and third and 2 outs. B3 hits a double between center and left field. R1 misses 2nd on the way to 3rd base. R3 scores. Does the run score if the defense properly appeals.


Now, is version 1 really so much easier? I don't believe so. I understand both versions. It's not as some have suggested that we can't understand it. Just because someone criticizes the current system doesn't mean we can't use it and don't understand it. There's no logically reason for version 1. Mike, you say that in softball we have to designate them just one time, implying that version 2 requires us to change their designation. This is not true. In a given case play we don't have to change their designation as the play goes on. It is much more logical to have R1 mean the runner on 1st.

How is it that I knew my buddy from GA would jump on this one? ;)

Or:

Runners at the corners, two outs. On a double by B5, R4 misses 2B as R3 scores. Does the run count if the missed base is appealed properly?

The "logical" reason for the softball method is order we all learned as children, 1, then 2, then 3..... same order in which the runners advance around the bases.

In the other, R3 comes before R1 and you have B3 hitting a double with R3 scoring. Huh?

With the softball method, you can continue with subsequent plays without changing the designation. If in the above scenario, the appeal was denied. You now have R4 and R5 on 3B & 2B with B6 in the box, 2 outs and one run scored.

With the other, it would be R3(nee R1) and R2(nee B3) on 3B & 2B with B3 batting. Wait a minute, didn't B3 just bat and is now standing on 2B? :rolleyes:

They're just different. That's all. Just different. Different people do things differently.

If you're describing a softball play, use the softball designations for players. If you're describing a baseball play, use the baseball designations. Or, use the "other" designation and annoy people.

The OBR rule book uses my favorite system of designation: "Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, Daniels hits a drive to right center . . ."

or

"Edwards is due to bat but French bats instead and singles."

However, this system is now abandoned, as it requires facility with the alphabet.

Because you know me so well? :)



True as far as continuing with subsequent plays. But that is so rarely done. I can't even think of a thread where this method was used, except in your above example! :rolleyes: Most of our posts and most of the case plays are individual plays. I can't even think of a series of case plays that this method was used.

When in Rome
 

I do use the softball designations. I'm a team player. I do what I'm trained to do even if I disagree with the mechanics. I enforce the rules even the ones I'd like to see changed. Doesn't mean we can't disagree with how things are done. I do believe that the various softball associations sometimes do things differently just to be different from baseball. Some of the mechanic differences are logically since the game is different on certain levels. Others, I believe, are done just to be different. Which is fine with me. I don't lose sleep over it. I'm just saying!

I'm just waiting for the baseball powers that be to endorse calls like DEAD BALL. That'll be some fun there! ;)

Couldn't agree more, but I didn't raise the issue or question it's logic :rolleyes:

I love that since MLB and I assume other baseball rule books use the term "alive" to describe the status of a ball in play no less than 10 times. OTOH, the term "ball is dead" is used on more than 50 occasions.

So, I really don't understand the resistance to "dead ball" since according their rules, it was alive. :D

Taking that a step further, I am pretty sure I remember the definition and rulings regarding "dead ball territory" in various levels of baseball. If the ball entering that territory doesn't make it a "dead ball", they logically should call that the "time territory".

Oops, logic. Never mind.:eek::eek:

Even better. From page 15 of the MLB Official Rules, Section 2.00 Definitions:

A DEAD BALL is a ball out of play because of a legally created temporary

suspension of play.

Are you just f'in with me bc i said more than once that you were condescending??? I hope you dont talk to people like that in real life, or if you do, I hope you know how to handle yourself [physically]

Why the need to mention anything about position players of bases??

You are correct, the runners only need to be labeled once, but they have to be qualified every time. You have to specify which base each runner is on in the "softball format" which is what this whole thread was supposed to be about. Why is the system set up that way and not setup with R2 always means runner on 2nd.... Before I started the thread I tried to think of a logical explanation, but couldnt think of one, hence a thread was created to find an answer.

Let me put this another way, you dont call the home plate ump, U1 who is behind home plate, you call him PU. The P tells you everything you need to know about the umps position and needs no further clarification, why does the same theory not apply to runners?

I dont know who you are but I can tell you are a wise poerson

Thats what I was trying to figure out. I dont know how baseball does it, all i know is what is logical in my mind, which is to designate R# where # is the base of the runner at TOP.

So there must have been a reason why softball decided to change the nomenclature, does anyone know what this reason is?

For what it's worth...

This isn't entirely a "baseball versus softball" thing. For whatever reason, FED baseball uses the same "softball" designations in all of their rule books, case books and printed interpretations.

Why they do this- who knows? They are the only one of the "major" baseball rule sets that follow this numbering system. And those more familiar with OBR or NCAA never miss a chance to critisize them for it!

Personally, as someone that deals with both, it's not that hard to keep them separate. "When in Rome...", I guess. But I have always wondered how these two similar systems came to be split in this regard. I wonder if sometime many years ago they might have been the same, then one or the other switched thinking theirs was "the better way".

Potayto, potahto, who gives a sh1t? Is it a terrible system? Not at all.

Much ado about nothing, and I've got better things to worry about than this.

Where are you getting this example from? there are only 3 bases, so in the "easier" method, you could only have R1, R2, or R3, never R4 or R5 or R6....

I understand how softball labels its runners, to me, and apparently to other people, its superfluous to have a label on a runner, then have to qualify where that runner is. You dont think its overly complex to say R1 is on second base when you can just say R2?

Maybe this is why you like the softball version, bc you cant comprehend that R3 means hes on third, which means hes ahead of R1, whos on first.

Its almost like having to say any rectangle with 4 sides of equal length, when you can just say any square.



maybe thats the answer to my question???? but ive never seen a description of a play with anything other than R1 R2 R3 used, ie ive never seen a sit with R4 or R5 or R6... used

So no one knows the reason behind the use of the "softball" system????

after all, that was the question in my OP

Why are traffic lights in that particular order? Why does a stop sign have 8 sides? Why is R1 on 3B? Someone probably knows why softball uses this system, but I doubt most people even care.

Does the system work?

pride and vanity can get in the way of knowing when a fight or a dialogue or conversation is worth something.

Sometimes, is this one of them, seems like it, we are forgetting the principle of cause I said so and I get to say so and that is that. Ain't got to explain nothing. Too many think that they can think better than the next guy and cause of it, the rest of the world should change and follow genius man or woman. people have lost their sense of when it is appropriate to object.

this is an old theme for me who has been here just 3 years. some of you ancient ones probably went here we go again.

I have no idea why it is like that but this is one instance that my wife would be proud of knowing not to make a mountain out of a mole hill.

I do wonder what anyone would do once they found out why it is done that way.

I imagine something along the lines of I see but..... See going now where on this and back to I am the boss and I said so. Know your place and know when it is time to debate an issue.

NCASA, as you can see, I have the long version of your short version: better things to do.:)

No more on this from me.

Ron

sure, it works, but it doesnt appear to be the best system. I could drive from boston to la, it would take 3 days, but id get there, or i could fly, and be there in 5 hours.

its not so much about caring, its more about not taking everything that your told as the end all be all. I could give a million examples about how questioning the way something was done is a good thing.

and fyi, the examples you gave are really that pertinent to the discussion, they would be if you could prove that traffic lights not in RYG order or a stop sign being a different shape would make them more effective in their usage. A better example would have been, why do elections not require voters to show ID to prevent voter fraud, and only require a verbal declaration and an address of who they are.

I whatever this post be closed. Anyone second it?

Seconded.

The whole time I watched this thread, I had a line from "The Departed" running through my head...

Ellerby: "Cui bono?" Who benefits?
Colin: Cui gives a sh1t? It's got a freakin' bow on it.

Heck why is it in Houston, TX (or is it all of Texas?) all of their traffic lights run horizontally while almost everywhere else I've been they are vertical? That's what I want to know. :D

I agree with Bret, I keep them separate and do as I'm expected in each sport. It really isn't something worth losing sleep over.

On a side note, since you guys are having your fun with baseball, the official rules require that the umpire call "Time" to kill the ball. You guys wouldn't want an umpire to do something not by the book, now would you? :)

5.10 The ball becomes dead when an umpire calls “Time.” The umpire-in-chief shall call “Time”—

And even there the primary designation is the farthest advanced, secondary next farthest, tertiary least farthest. Abel is ultimate, Baker is penultimate and Charlie is antepenultimate. It is JUST LIKE R1, R2, and R3.

You don't mean that softball guys got it right in modern terminology and baseball guys don't. Shucks, we sure are good.:D:cool::p::)

[quote=IRISHMAFIA;609195]From the MLB Official Rules, Section 2.00 Definitions:


suspension of play.

“TIME” is the announcement by an umpire of a legal interruption of play, during

which the ball is dead

This seems to be the difference. In softball (speaking ASA), TIME is a voluntary suspension of play granted by the umpire and a DEAD BALL is a situation where the ball becomes dead for any particular reason other than when TIME is invoked by the umpire.

In baseball, TIME is the declaration offered for both scenarios.

It seems to be similar to INT versus OBS. In baseball, there is "defensive interference" and "obstruction". The DI is when a member of the defense hinders the batter from hitting the ball and OBS when a member of the defense hinders a runner. In softball, anytime the defense hinders the offense, it is OBS.

And even there the primary designation is the farthest advanced, secondary next farthest, tertiary least farthest. Abel is ultimate, Baker is penultimate and Charlie is antepenultimate. It is JUST LIKE R1, R2, and R3.

True, but the actual names make the play easier for me to picture. Adds some realism to have "Baker" committing interference rather than "R2."

I haven't encountered the term antepenultimate since I studied Latin. ("If the penultimate syllable is a short vowel, the accent is on the antepenultimate syllable.") But of course antepenultimate means "third from the end," so I'm not sure how you apply it to Charles, who is third from the beginning in the inning.

Someday I hope to have the opportunity to say, "The run counts, Coach. The antepenultimate runner scored before the penultimate runner was tagged out."

The YSISF uses a combination of OBR (name) and softball (number) for offensive designations: Mohammed 1, Mohammed 2, Mohammed 3, etc. It takes a while to describe a complex "what if" situation.

Batters advancing in alphabetical order seems "real" to you? That is almost as convenient as people dying in alphabetical order to make it easier to sort through the newspaper's obituary section. :rolleyes:

Just kidding :D

You mean they don't:eek:

Well there goes that mystery...