Boo
 

ASA
Here is the situation. 1 out, batter 9 #2 Jackie grounds out, 10 #21 Bobbie comes up to bat & flies out, before the defense leaves the field the coach appeals batting out of order. What do you do as the umpire?

Batting order

Number Name Position

1 22 Sally 2

2 14 Jane 5

3 6 Cheryl 4

4 8 Sue 9

5 12 Megan DP

6 26 Candace 3

7 5 Kelly 7

8 34 Jaylin 8

9 2 Jackie 6

10 21 Bobbie Flex

Already had this one this year:

http://forum.officiating.com/softbal...tml#post594208

The FLEX batting in the mythical #10 hole is not BOO, it is an illegal player batting for the #1 batter. (ASA 4-3-I).

This has come up repeatedly, and we seem to have concluded that it is illegal, not BOO. The confusion come from the possibility of the FLEX batting for the DP, which in the OP would obvioulsy be out of order and also unreported. Seems to me, that BOO would be a real stretch, so illegal sub is the solution.

hrmmm..what would it be in FED? samey same?

never mind...

Yes. 2-57-3. Illegal substitute.

gracias.

We have discussed this previously, and NCAA is different from the others. NCAA presumes the FLEX is batting for the DP, that is the only location they can bat legally, but are unreported. In this case, the request for BOO is upheld, B1 (#22 Sally) is out, B2 (#14 Jane) will be due up next inning, and the substition of the FLEX for the DP is made official. Good luck with the OC after that. The DC could also pocket the unreported substitute (in place of the BOO) and appeal that at most opportune moment later.

NFHS.... once the flex is restricted... could the coach enter an available sub in as the flex or is that position burnt?

Yes, it the player that is restricted, not the position.

I have a different BOO question. Assume a standard 1-9 lineup no dp/flex

Batter #4 comes up when #3 is suppossed to be up and completes an at bat at which point the DC notes the BOO.

If Batter #4 reached base then Batter #3 is declared out, Runners all return, and Batter #4 is up again.

If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up.

This seems confusing to me, I would think Batter #4 should be up again regardless of the result of her at bat, but the way I read ASA 7.2.D.2.Exception that places #5 up next.

These are correct according to ASA rules. The point is that we do not take away outs. Any outs obtained during the incorrect at-bat will be kept, because we should not penalize the defense for the offense's mistake.

Then, shouldn't #4 and #3 both be out, 2 outs not 1 out; as in "If Batter #4 was out then Batter #3 is declared out (only one out though not two outs) and batter #5 is now up."?

Do I remember correctly that this is only true in ASA?

I think what he was saying was that in the second scenario, B4 batted out of order (B3 was skipped) and was put out on the play. That'd be two outs.

I don't know what other associations have to say about this. Someone else will have to speak to that.

I agree with Cecil.

ASA 7.2.D.2

a. The player who should have batted is out.
b. Any advance of runners and any run scored shall be nullified. All outs made stand.
c. The next batter is the player whose name follows that of the player called out for failing to bat.
d. If the batter declared out is the third out, the correct batter to lead off the next inning shall be the player who would have come to bat had the player been put out by ordinary play.
Exception:
If the incorrect batter is called out as a result of their time at bat, and is scheduled to be the proper batter, skip that player and the next person in the line-up will be the batter.


NFHS, however, only takes one out in this situation. The at bat by the incorrect batter is 'negated'.

NFHS 7.2 Penalty #2:
When an improper batter becomes a runner or is put out and the defensive team appeals to the umpire before the next pitch (legal or illegal), or prior to an intentional base on balls (S.P.), or before the infielders leave the diamond if a half-inning is ending: The umpire shall declare the batter who should have batted out (not the improper batter). The improper batter's time at bat is negated and she is returned to the dugout/bench area. All outs stand and runners who were not declared out must return to the base occupied at the time of the pitch. If a runner advances because of a stolen base , wild pitch, passed ball (F.P) or an illegal pitch (F.P.) while the improper batter is at bat, such advance is legal.

Correct

Correct, for the BOO. #4 is also out, which would be the second out.

Why? It isn't the defense's fault the wrong batter hit into an out. ASA may be the only one with this exception, but it makes all the sense in the world.

It makes sense now that I understand both players are out due to the "all outs stand" portion of the rule preceding the exception. I was confused reading the execption because it didn't specifically restate that the out on the OOO batter stands as well.

Is the "negate" term interpreted correct for NFHS in the post preceding? such that it would not be two outs for NFHS in this same situation? That's what my confusion is here, using terms like "negate" "skip" with "all outs stand" needs clarification IMO.

I'm not sure how to map the terms. But your conclusion is right. ASA double play. Everywhere else, the correct batter is out on appeal.
________
MEDICALMARIJUANA DISPENSARIES

Let me muddy the water on this; there are three different rules out there on related plays. R1 is on 2nd, R2 on 1st with no outs, B3 supposed to bat, but B4 bats instead, and hits into a 6-4-3 double play. DC appeals BOO before the next pitch.

ASA ruling; keep all outs, so R2 out in force, B3 out on BOO, B4 out on the play. Three outs, B5 bats leadoff next inning.

NFHS ruling; keep all "OTHER" outs EXCEPT the incorrect batter, so R2 out on force, R1 returns to 2nd (advance negated), B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. Two outs, B4 bats (again) with R1 on 2nd.

NCAA ruling; negate all play, so R1 returns to 2nd, R2 returns to 1st, B3 out on BOO, B4 play negated. One out, B4 now bats with R1 on 2nd and R2 1st.

Now, how can all three major associations have 3 different rulings on a basic rule? But, they do; and if the NCAA coach makes the appeal, it hurts the offended team!!

That's my favorite umpire trivia question for casual fans. :cool:

When ASA first introduced this rule, I was sure it would be something I would never see.

First game of the year, first batter gets on, then B3 hits into a double play. An unbelievably alert coach brought the BOO to my attention and, sure enough, I had three outs on two pitches! :eek:

Love the ASA rule.

if the NCAA coach makes the appeal, it hurts the offended team!!

Yes. NCAA follows OBR. Your description of the way ASA, Fed, and NCAA deal with the play is correct.

Obviously, it can never be to the disadvantage of the defense to appeal BOO in ASA. In Fed, appealing could be to the disadvantage of the defense (R1 on 1B, B3 bats instead of B2 and hits into a double play). In OBR/NCAA, there are many situations in which the defense is better off saying nothing, as well as plays in which the defense would want to consider the options.

What would happen if the offensive coach discovered that his team batted out of order? Could he "appeal" before the next pitch? That would be to his advantage.

I don't do NCAA, but I think that if the coach discovered someone batting out of order during an AB, the correct batter could step in and assume the ball and strike count.

Don't know about other assns, but in ASA only the defense may appeal BOO. (7.2.C.Effect)

I don't believe the BOO is actually a done-deal until the improper batter completes his/her turn at bat.

No. Only if the OC discovers the error during the at bat.


That's true in all codes.